Ethical Dillema

[512OW]

Ok, I know I'm about to get skewered for "spray", but honestly, I really don't give a fuck...

Heres the situation....

2 years ago or so I pinkpointed Thurmonuclear Roof Crack, an unrepeated 12d in Western Kentucky. I had 2 pieces preplaced, one of which was all mangled and had to be removed and resituated. I never said much about it, figuring that I could do it in a better style, which I will eventually.

NOW...in my newfound zeal for roofcracks, and my lengthly searches for them, I've found a disturbing trend.....LOTS of pinkpoints are being considered FA's and repeats...

This goes back as far as Peter Crofts 1987 ascent of "The Monument" in Quebec. He claimed "onsight" and FA, but there was preplaced gear????


They all claim that cleaning the roof while working it is too much work. Seems to me that if you climb it on pinkpoint, you should just about be able to clean it and redpoint it, right??


I've only seen ONE case of the FAist reporting the FA as a pinkpoint, and that was Jeff Achey on Human Chew Toy at LRC, Tennessee.

I emailed him and thanked him for the honesty.

I've made up my mind to do what I wanna do, but my ? is this......does it seem smarter to follow the lead set by all these pinkpoint fairies, including that jackass Peter Croft (who, when asked face to face by yours truly, called Welcome To Ole Kentuck a "pointless boulder problem".)

OR

Should I continue the tradition set by Rob Robinson and crew and do shit the right way??

In every mention anywhere, Thurmonuclear remains "unrepeated".

[haas]

Bottom line, as long as you're honest about how you do it, it doesn't really matter. Thurmo is an impressive ascent pink or redpoint. If you really don't give a shit about what others think and the redpoint is important to you then don't claim the 2nd ascent. If you want to give Peter Croft the big F*ck you then claim the 2nd and say you pinkpointed it. Roofs are a biatch to clean everytime but I think there's still a need to do so. Placing all your own gear adds to the level of difficulty for sure, especially with gear, if for no other reason then more of a pump. Not to spray all over myself, but I pinkpointed Stranger Than Paradise over Halloween weekend, but can't quite get the redpoint so I don't feel that I've done it. Hence why I didn't report it. I think ethics and style are on the decline with climbing and it would be nice to see a comeback in both. I say go redpoint it. If you need some sucker to jug up and clean it after every attempt, I'll offer to do it a few times for ya

[512OW]

Thanks.

Nice job on Stranger....the top moves on that thing are sick hard.

[Horatio Felacio]

why the fuck would jeff achey need to pinkpoint human chew toy? it's only .11c isn't it? plus it's pretty fuckin gay looking.

[512OW]

Actually, Ho, it was a whole slew of characters you probably know, and they gave it 12-.

Besides Jeff, it's Chris Chesnutt, Travis Eiseman, and Kirk Brodie as a team who are credited with the FA. I believe it was Chris who actually led the pinkpoint FA, but I'm not positive.

My guess is that they deemed it too difficult to clean and retry over and over....

You look pretty gay too, with your rosy cheeks, but you're hard.......

[Horatio Felacio]

.12- isn't that hard for a pinkpoint to be necessary. haven't you ever been climbing with someone and they get the lead of a "moderate" crack. they lower off and instead of wasting time pulling gear for your "clean" ascent, you just tell them to leave it in place, so you can do it and move on to something else? i've done that. i guess you and wes can tell me the ol' crap about "pre-placed has no place", but i would bet anything i could've done it because it wasn't that hard to begin with. i don't see the pre-placed thing to be much of an issue unless part of the difficulty of the route is placing the gear.

from the looks of human chew toy, i would guess that is why they did it. probably just all those dudes taking turns on it one day and finally one of them did it. i just don't remember the chew toy looking that hard to protect.

[SCIN]

It's all a matter of personal preference and losing sleep. If you're losing sleep over something you called a redpoint because you had a couple of pieces in place then you best better go do it without the pre-placed pieces. However, if you had a piece in place for one reason or the other when you redpointed it and it doesn't bother you then more power to you. If someone tries to tell you that you didnt redpoint something because of a piece that you were too lazy to remove then kick their ass and tell them to go do it in better style.

[Zspider]

I think the important thing is that a person feels comfortable about what they've done. As far as what is a redpoint or pinkpoint, I think it's a little bit ambiguous. Used to be I wouldn't call a sport climb a redpoint if I stickclipped the first bolt. After many people said it was cool, I'm stickclipping everything and if I make it, it's a redpoint. Don't bother me one damned bit.

But I'm wanting to start working Stay the Hand. Didn't somebody steal the first bolt? Can I stickclip the second bolt and call it a redpoint? Or, like Meadows suggested, can I stickclip the anchors and send the hog?

ZSpider

[J-Rock]

What about all those sport climbers doing 5.13's and 5.14's with preplaced draws?

[Wes]

But I'm wanting to start working Stay the Hand. Didn't somebody steal the first bolt? Can I stickclip the second bolt and call it a redpoint? Or, like Meadows suggested, can I stickclip the anchors and send the hog?
ZSpider

The first bolt is back, thanks (again) to Terry K. Some routes I stick the 2nd (supafly) or maybe even the 3rd to work them, but try to do them with just the first. Unless I feel the first bolt is "dumb", then I just stick the 2nd and call it good. On stay, you don't want the 2nd clipped, as the rope gets in the way.

Pink point / red point this is way old to me these days. I haven't done any trad hard enough to warrent pre-placed (or just not cleaned between burns) gear yet. I did call Thunderchicken a send, even though there were draws on the anchors from Danny's onsight. I still sleep well at night.

Wes


Wes