Why don't Mandala and J- Rock test populations of WR, nesting sites and quantify the impact. But in the meantime, why don' we stay off of Greenhorn. Let's do the right thing and avoid a just ok route- (it is not a classic and there are others much better next to it). We shouldn't worry about the precedent of this action being extrapolated to others possible similar situations in the future. To worry about that is conjecture. Do the right thing now and it will rarely come back to bite you.
I would bet that this critter is transient and will be gone by spring. Winter is a down time for climbing anyway. Give the route and the critter a break. Not because you love wood rats or because you fly the green peace flag, but becuase needlessly impacting an innocent critter, when it does no harn to us to not impact the critter, is wrong.
The resistance to leaving this route alone strikes me as the height of selfishness and self serving and even spite toward the critter. It reflects poorly on us as stewards of land. Climbing is not that important. Your conscience is more important.
Voluntary route closure at Solar Collector
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the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
The whooping cranes (some) just left the Muscatatuck National Wildlife Refuge which is about 13 miles up the road. I saw them in the sky last friday, whooping it up.
A local paper did an article about them and apparently this group had been hatched in captivity, nurtured at the refuge, and are being assisted on their migration. Since they do not have adults to teach them the path and proceedure the scientists (a scientist) guide them on migration in an ultra-light. The birds have the ultra-light imprinted as its mother (1st circuit bio-survival), so they are not afraid and follow.
Changing sets........Man's (and WoMan's) impacts are a natural disaster (relative to a great deal of habitiat, species, and base level compounds...air, water) and is aslo evolution, the two are inseprable. For our species own selfish interests we should slow down the process. The cure for cancer may be sitting in a gene bank of an unidentified insect in the brazilan rain forest. Or may have been sitting in diversity created by the forests in indiana before they were 70 percent depleted.
Thing is it aint going to slow down (for some time). We have infinite wants and limitied rescoures. AMORICA is the leader in this greed fest, and we are all guilty. The corporate infrastructure (who own the politicians) are going to squander all they can, program us to sleep (even more so), and get richer while the rest of us fight for our slice of a declining standard of living.
Approximately, 98 percent of the wealth in the country is owned by two percent of the public. We don't have much choice, yet to follow suit. If you give a shit then you try to re-cycle, get a job that helps (on the surface), but it is more for our ego than actually making a difference.
I just wrote a grant for a River Society, EPA funded, IDEM 319 non-source polution grant. It funded a two year positon for an educator/coordintor for the group plus supplies, etc. While doing the research for the grant I had to get info from the 303d List of Impared Waters study for Indiana. The thing is 27 pages long. There are 92 counties in Indiana. So......about ten entries/tributaries per county. Most counties have one river or less.......so basically every substaintial water conduit is tainted. E.Coli, mercury, PCB's, etc. Last week There was a blurp in Colorado. The male fish are starting to have female reproductive organs also because of high levels of estrogen from sewage treatment centers.
I wrote this grant and of course you have to show how you are going to measure results. You are educating the public, but will this information last in the mind of the individual or will the x-mas programing take over come 11-12-04.
Thing is no politican is going to do anything substantial enough to curb the downward spiral cause it will mean a loss of jobs and he won't get re-elected.
The whole wood-rat issue is bunk to me (and whooping crane, also) because we are treating the symptom, yet letting the disease proliferate.
Otherwise.........I am an optimist. We could be free of our dependence on oil, whenever we devote the time and money to invent the next evolution. Do you really think the Oil Barons want to release their hold on the multi-national power grid? Why are we in Iraq?
A local paper did an article about them and apparently this group had been hatched in captivity, nurtured at the refuge, and are being assisted on their migration. Since they do not have adults to teach them the path and proceedure the scientists (a scientist) guide them on migration in an ultra-light. The birds have the ultra-light imprinted as its mother (1st circuit bio-survival), so they are not afraid and follow.
Changing sets........Man's (and WoMan's) impacts are a natural disaster (relative to a great deal of habitiat, species, and base level compounds...air, water) and is aslo evolution, the two are inseprable. For our species own selfish interests we should slow down the process. The cure for cancer may be sitting in a gene bank of an unidentified insect in the brazilan rain forest. Or may have been sitting in diversity created by the forests in indiana before they were 70 percent depleted.
Thing is it aint going to slow down (for some time). We have infinite wants and limitied rescoures. AMORICA is the leader in this greed fest, and we are all guilty. The corporate infrastructure (who own the politicians) are going to squander all they can, program us to sleep (even more so), and get richer while the rest of us fight for our slice of a declining standard of living.
Approximately, 98 percent of the wealth in the country is owned by two percent of the public. We don't have much choice, yet to follow suit. If you give a shit then you try to re-cycle, get a job that helps (on the surface), but it is more for our ego than actually making a difference.
I just wrote a grant for a River Society, EPA funded, IDEM 319 non-source polution grant. It funded a two year positon for an educator/coordintor for the group plus supplies, etc. While doing the research for the grant I had to get info from the 303d List of Impared Waters study for Indiana. The thing is 27 pages long. There are 92 counties in Indiana. So......about ten entries/tributaries per county. Most counties have one river or less.......so basically every substaintial water conduit is tainted. E.Coli, mercury, PCB's, etc. Last week There was a blurp in Colorado. The male fish are starting to have female reproductive organs also because of high levels of estrogen from sewage treatment centers.
I wrote this grant and of course you have to show how you are going to measure results. You are educating the public, but will this information last in the mind of the individual or will the x-mas programing take over come 11-12-04.
Thing is no politican is going to do anything substantial enough to curb the downward spiral cause it will mean a loss of jobs and he won't get re-elected.
The whole wood-rat issue is bunk to me (and whooping crane, also) because we are treating the symptom, yet letting the disease proliferate.
Otherwise.........I am an optimist. We could be free of our dependence on oil, whenever we devote the time and money to invent the next evolution. Do you really think the Oil Barons want to release their hold on the multi-national power grid? Why are we in Iraq?
I killed a few Harmonia axyridis last weekend. Then I realized that there were only a few of them here as little as 15 years ago! Oh well, I'll kill more if I see them. 
Sarcasm is a tool the weak use to avoid confrontation. People with any balls just outright lie.
[quote="Meadows"]I try not to put it in my mouth now, but when I do, I hold it with just my lips.[/quote]
[quote="Meadows"]I try not to put it in my mouth now, but when I do, I hold it with just my lips.[/quote]
Please kill all of them!Actually mature large growth forests were their prime habitat. Then they got clearcut. Obviously this species was strong enough to survive the deforestation process. Later these creatures moved to the cliff. They are extremely adaptable and our presence (presents) most likely benefits them. Obviously they eat feces and love to collect our used toilet paper. Their prime habitat can be a rock face, a crevice, a tree, a cave, a boulder, etc. By the way, I haven't seen climbers going out and shooting all the rats either, therefore the comparison to the whooping cranes is not accurate! Also, since when did empirical evidence become an old wive's tale? Finally, I wish we didn't need to worry about the precedent of this action being extrapolated to other similiar situations in the future, but undoubtedly it will most likely happen again. For now, I will stay off this route, but these situations deeply worry me when considering the future of climbing at the Red.
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder
So it appears that we probably don't pose a threat to these rats. And we all agree that staying off this particular route for now is a good idea and I agree but i don't see how it'll make a difference, there is a route on either side of Green Horn(not less than 4 feet on either side) won't climbing on those route also affect this rat? Not trying to be an ass here, just trying to understand why we are even staying off Green Horn. I don't want to see the whole cliff closed but that makes more sense to me than just avoiding Green Horn when all the 11's are pretty close to each other.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
What are climbers in other parts of the country doing when they face similar dilemas? In MN, at Palisade Head, every year there is a VOLUNTARY closure of some of the best routes there to allow for the Peregrin Falcons to mate, etc. - see the following "success story" of climbers and their ability to cope with time limited route closures and their respect for the environmentalists/biologists who make these decisions (e.g. Mandela). At the New the Endless Wall is shut down yearly for birds of prey to mate. Climbers in the New, and in MN are able to abide by these closures. Seasonal closures also exist in other climbing areas, for other reasons... Eldorado Canyon has seasonal closures, and on and on and on... Let's be proactive, respect the rat and her natural habitat, and find other 5.11s to climb in the meantime. Greenhorn is fun, but nobody is going to suffer from not climbing that route.
Palisade Head, Lake County, Minnesota North Shore. A twoyear old male, Larry, released at Tofte, about 30 miles up the shore,mated with a two year old female, Fridge, from Minneapolis and producedthree eggs and two youngsters, a male and a female. This pair had tocope with rock-climbers, who flock to Palisade Head. The MinnesotaDept. of Transportation, responding to a request from the MnDNR,prepared a sign asking climbers to avoid the part of the cliff with theeyrie. Cooperation was good and the young falcons developed and fledged normally
Palisade Head, Lake County, Minnesota North Shore. A twoyear old male, Larry, released at Tofte, about 30 miles up the shore,mated with a two year old female, Fridge, from Minneapolis and producedthree eggs and two youngsters, a male and a female. This pair had tocope with rock-climbers, who flock to Palisade Head. The MinnesotaDept. of Transportation, responding to a request from the MnDNR,prepared a sign asking climbers to avoid the part of the cliff with theeyrie. Cooperation was good and the young falcons developed and fledged normally
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marathonmedic
- Posts: 1557
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:01 am
That's a cool idea Pete, but the problem is that we're comparing carnivores and scavengers here which is akin to apples and oranges. Culturally we've got a soft spot for carnivores. Just look at the Discovery Channel sometime and you'll see all the shows dedicated to it, but specials decated to rats and worms are pretty rare. They just don't have the prestige that the raptors and hunters do.
Ticking is gym climbing outdoors.