Voluntary route closure at Solar Collector

[busty]

So they are pro-recycling? Enivironmentalist rats.

I presume you are talking about the little creatures on the cliffs? I don't know any lawyers who eat poop.

[marathonmedic]

Lawyers eating poop. Now there's a pleasant thought. But seriously, I will certainly admit that lawyers get a bad rap, but I'm also a bit biased. Everyone on this board has made mistakes at work. They never meant to do it, that's why it's called a mistake. But most of the people on this board also don't have to worry about ending up in court for any mistake they make. It's never seemed quite fair to me that so many people hold doctors to a perfect standard. They're people, too, and they WILL make mistakes. Okay, I'm off the soapbox now.

[Roentgen Ray]

while the much esteemed doctors were busy treating people with leeches and bleeding them.

I stick up for the attorneys and then get attacked. You know they use maggots to treat diabetic foot disease in England to this day. Mother nature does a much better job than a surgeon can in a sterile room.

[J-Rock]

I have a few more things to say,
but much to my dismay,
I'm out of bourbon.
It will have to wait...
until... another day.

[Roentgen Ray]

Consider this scenerio. Let's say in one year the woodrat is officially protected as a federally threatened or endangered species. A couple of scenerios could play out, here is one. Since the Red clearly provides the best habitat in the world for this species, there are likely more here than anywhere else. They make homes in many areas that also host climbs. The USFS manages a lot of land with routes we like to climb. The USFS has few options. The easiest option would be for them to say: since this cliffline is known to host or likely to host protected species, we need to shut the entire cliff to activity. We can counter and say, no, in our experience, we (the climbing community) found that we were able to significantly reduce the climbing activity on routes that traversed woodrat nesting sites (i.e. police ourselves), and the little booger did fine (survived the winter and successfully mated). And everyone lives happily ever after...

[J-Rock]

8)

[charlie]

.........You know they use maggots to treat diabetic foot disease in England to this day. Mother nature does a much better job than a surgeon can in a sterile room.

A wise doctor man told me recently they still do that here, sterile maggots are ordered from med suppies places and eat away infection. Much more accurate than surgery and no damage to viable flesh.

[J-Rock]

Leeches are still used in modern medicine too.

[Roentgen Ray]

Scenerio #2. Let's say in one year the woodrat is officially protected as a federally threatened or endangered species. The USFS to says: since this cliffline is known to host or likely to host protected species, we need to shut the entire cliff to activity. We say: well, we have tried to regulate ourselves and it was futile. Poor little guy had a huge cache of food, but we disturbed 'em a lot during his normal sleep time over the long cold winter. Don't know what happened, but he just didn't make it through the winter. Maybe it just ran off. It's too bad the whole cliff has to be closed though.

[J-Rock]

Ahh... another new day! If the wood rat became officially protected then this would be an entirely different situation and it should be respected. Fortunately for us (and the wood rat), I don't see this happening any time soon (unless Spragwa and Mandala have their way). I trust the observations of T-Bone and several others who have 20+ years of experience with wood rats over someone who has done some studies and rappelled down the cliff a few times over a 2 year time period. I have pesonally witnessed these wood rat nests on very small ledges (which according to the expert testimonial does not occur). Why should I pay more attention to data that is obviously flawed when the empirical evidence suggests otherwise? Nobody on here has a "climb at all cost attitude". I'm in favor of a little common sense and self censure. I could easily continue since I'm having so much fun, but that's enough for now...