Voluntary route closure at Solar Collector

Post by **rhunt** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:33 pm

Spragwa I totally agree too, we as climbers should manage ourselves and the RRGCC will manage their land. I have faith that the RRGCC will make the best possible decision regarding the rats. It's a difficult middle ground to find but essential for the future of the Red. Just to satisfy my own personal curiosity, I'd like to know if the current research regarding these WoodRats indicates that human presents negatively affect these critters. The results could help us determine how we go about developing future climbing areas in KY. Plus I am still confused as to what species of rats are found at the cliffs. Are there two different species and only one species is *potentially* endanger in KY?

Post by **kneebar** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:34 pm

Sooooooooo anyway, was that a beaver that chewed down that 12" dia. tree on the new trail down to Sore heel? He's got one hell of an overbite, and what happened to the remains of the tree?

Post by **captain static** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:53 pm

rhunt wrote:Are there two different species and only one species is *potentially* endanger in KY?

From what I understand there are several species of woodrat in Kentucky & that the species in the gorge area is the Allegheny Woodrat. At the same time, unless someone can show me something different from a credible public source, the Allegheny Woodrat does not have any status either in Kentucky or at the Federal level for potential listing as a Threatened or Endangered Species.

Post by **ynot** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:37 pm

You mean congeress doesnt do it that way,Rick?

Post by **busty** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:53 pm

weber wrote: Digressing: Let's all hope for a glorious day when the Allegheny Wood Rat will be replaced on the endangered species list by Lawyers. Rick

Ahhhh! I don't want to be on the endangered species list.

Post by **Roentgen Ray** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:50 am

Save the lawyers!

Did I just say that. Never mind, I think I'll keep quiet on this issue.

Post by **marathonmedic** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:30 am

This thread amazes me. 8 pages and it hasn't gotten derailed or varied from the first page. I would also like to offer my condolences to Roentgen Ray for the way his humanitarian gesture has been treated on here.

I'm a big fan of letting something that was there before me have squatting rights and leaving it alone unless there is a good reason not to, but I'm a way bigger fan of perspective, not to mention pointing and laughing at our own hipocracy.

Ever watch the news a while back and see the incredible mass of coverage that followed the search for that girl up in South Dakota (or wherever) a few months back. What made her so special from all the other missing persons in the world? She just happened to get the media spotlight just like this one rat. J-Rock's got a point, what about all the others that are on climbs that see way more traffic than this one? If there is a nest on Creature Feature of all routes, I'm willing to bet that we don't bother them as much we might like to believe.

These things are at the bottom of the food chain and we're not the only things that scare them. If he's so startled by seeing one or two people for a couple minutes once in a while makes him run off and find a new home, then it sounds like he's not really hurting for living quarters these days.

I also heard about this funky plant that is definately endangered and likes to live at the bottom of cliffs. It hasn't even slowed us down from climbing 99.99 percent of the time.

squeezindlemmon wrote:Those of you out there who have committed their lives to protecting endangered species, ask yourself this: what is the purpose of evolution?

Sorry, dude, but humans are way closer to a natural disaster than an evolutionary force. I'll admit we put a ton of pressure on a lot of species but the thing we do the most of is upset the BALANCE between everything out there. Look at cudzu. We can't exist on this planet alone with just a few other species as much as we might like to think we could. We need the scavengers, snakes and creepy things, too. I'm not so sure about the mosquitos though. And can someone tell me a "good" reason that poison ivy needs to be here?

My personal feelings on the matter, leave the creatures you find out there alone unless they pose a direct threat to you (like a wasp nest in an undercling pocket you need to clip the anchors).

Roentgen Ray wrote:Save the lawyers!

from Hook--

KILL THE LAWYER!

Post by **busty** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:54 am

And can someone tell me a "good" reason that poison ivy needs to be here?

Sure, people who get into poison ivy need calamine lotion. The calamine lotion factory employs people. So, they have jobs and spend the money they earn and the economy keeps going.

Now about the lawyer comments - Its disappointing to hear people attack lawyers since most people have no idea what we actually do. And no, its not suing everyone all the time. Of course, the "lawyers are bad" song and dance changes the minute someone gets sued, has a DUI, wants to close on a house, needs a will, wants a divorce or just wants some free legal advice.

I cannot tell you how many people say something like -"oh, you're one of those ambulance chasers from the phone book" - when they find out I'm a lawyer. Well, I'm not. There are plenty of lawyers out there that pursue cases for the money. But, there are also plenty of us who are ethical and do a job that is necessary. And, we don't all rake in whooping amounts of money from this profession. Everything in your life has been touched by the legal system in some way that you probably never realize.

If you don't like it that lawyers often win big verdicts in civil cases, keep in mind that the juries issuing these verdict are composed of average citizens, NOT lawyers. Instead of figuring out how to get out of jury duty, take the responsibility of sitting on a jury and making a decision in a case and awarding what is fair or awarding nothing.

By the way, some of the greatest figures in American history were lawyers - ever heard of Abe Lincoln? This country was founded in part by lawyers, while the much esteemed doctors were busy treating people with leeches and bleeding them.

Might I also remind you that it is lawyers who are fighting to ensure that your access to climbing in the southern region remains. Its not just people who are active in the RRGCC or other groups like Shannon Stuart-Smith and John Bronaugh (whoops, I forgot, they are lawyers too).

Post by **Meadows** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:55 am

I say, "kill all the lawyers, let's kill 'em tonight." I serenaded Spragwa with that the other night.

So is there any chance I'm killing endangered insects with my presence on trails? With our curiousity to "bond with nature" I believe impact on environment is inevitable, hence our vast cities. Also, the solution to all this that someone requested earlier is, to stop procreating. Of course, we can lessen the impact (especially with less humans) but unfortunately ignorance still runs rampant (such as myself - I climbed the route not knowing that it was an occupied nest).

I don't know if I have a point other than I see passionate, intelligent arguments as well as hypocritical viewpoints.

Damn people, that nest is FOUL. Why the heck would you want to climb the route anyway?

Post by **ynot** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:27 am

Did everyone else miss the fact that these rats are eating poop?