Voluntary route closure at Solar Collector

Post by **Spoonman** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:45 pm

It is not going to hurt to close this one climb and I assume that will happen from the coalition. I have climbed the route within the last month, but will stay clear now. I really doubt the rat is worried. Peak season for traffic, and she is still there?

The darkside/collector/coast horseshoe canyon is about 50% developed or less. For the rat to set up in the only warm-ups (ie busiest) to the whole area, leads me to believe that the population must be expanding and/or she is not worried about our presence and/or we are her food supply.

I think it makes sense to study the issue, get the facts straight, be responsible and proceed with caution. The coaltion does not have biologists though, nor funding.

After re-electing (actually first election) the worst environmental president of all time and watching good historic legislation being raped..........I feel like we are saving a toothpick from a forest fire.

Spoon

BS Purdue......Forest Resource Manangement.........11 years Recreation Professional

Post by **Lateralus** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:51 pm

"I feel like we are saving a toothpick from a forest fire"

bingo

Post by **rhunt** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:03 pm

Hey Spoon, again I like what you said. But the thing is we don't have any freaking idea how our presents affects these sweet little rats. How would closing just that one climb protect him/her? This is the crux, if we err on the side of caution then the whole cliff needs to be closed...and that's not going to happen. If the rat is disturbed by someone climbing thru that hueco, how is it affected by someone climbing the other two routes that are two feet on either side of that hueco.

I'm with you..these rat are NOT at all bothered by our presents!

Post by **J-Rock** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:07 pm

You can call me an amateur biologist or an idiot all you want. However, I feel confident that I've received a decent education in the biological sciences. I grew up on a farm seeing biology first hand on a daily basis. All of my spare time I spent off exploring in our woods as a small child with endless curiosity. This desire to learn more about our natural world has never dwindled and I still spend 40+ hours a week outdoors observing nature and enjoying the comfort of the forest (and of course climbing). Also, I happened to write a perfect score on the biology advanced placement exam as a junior in high school and was awarded several scholarships. I could continue listing more science awards and honors from middle school through college than you could imagine and I gained considerable field research experience in the process. Can you and Mandala say the same or should we resort to more name calling?

Post by **rhunt** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:06 pm

So to drag the thread along even further.

I read the link http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwm ... lwofs.html

And I couldn't find any human reason for the decline of the rats. It seems over population of raccoons is the problem not humans, at least not climbers hanging out near their nests!

Post by **Toad** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:13 pm

What's resposible for the lack of beaver at the cliff?

Post by **rhunt** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:17 pm

?water?

Post by **Spragwa** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:37 pm

Actually J-Roc, I have no science back ground. Never claimed too. I'm more comfortable with environmental treaties than the habitats of animals. I know that Mandala is highly respected in her field of study here in Kentucky. For this reason, I give her professional opinion more credence than yours. I'm not hacking on you. I'm sure that you are competent. But this is her area of expertise and I know her reputation.

Rhunt, I know that almost no one else can close it. I know that is why the purchase went through. I am saying that we should self-censor. As a community. Obviously, we have a right v. left discussion re: protect living creatures or climb no matter what. Hopefully, we'll find some middle ground for the RRGCC. Wes said that they are looking into it. I've made a suggestion to the EC about this and we'll just see what they do.

Post by **weber** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:18 pm

rhunt wrote:So to drag the thread along even further.

I read the link http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwm ... lwofs.html

And I couldn't find any human reason for the decline of the rats. It seems over population of raccoons is the problem not humans, at least not climbers hanging out near their nests!

And more factual information continues to be posted. A strong case now seems to be made for racoon poop, infested with round worm, "doing in" more wood rats than climbers could ever do, intentionally or not.

Threads on this forum often progress this way:

1. Someone suggests (or demands) an action be taken based on incomplete information and/or anecdotal "evidence."

2. Someone else argues with the first poster, citing even more incomplete information and/or anecdotal "evidence."

3. Everyone joins in the fray.

4. Little by little, the real facts come to light in posts.

5. Everyone back-pedals and rationalizes his/her position as more facts are posted.

6. Ad infinitum.

Please don't stop! I've never been more entertained and enlightened with your wit and wisdom. Between peals of laughter, I've gained a wealth of knowledge on this furry little critter.

Digressing: Let's all hope for a glorious day when the Allegheny Wood Rat will be replaced on the endangered species list by Lawyers.

Rick

Post by **captain static** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:25 pm

I think there is perhaps some confusion about the status of the Allegheny Woodrat from a State perspective vs. a Federal perspective. There are definitely population concerns in several States but not in Kentucky. According to the US Fish & Wildlife Service website, however, I see no listing for the Allegheny Woodrat as being either a Candidate, Proposed Threatened, or Proposed Endangered species: http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/TESSWeb ... &type=both