Can you rate it if you haven't sent it?

[SCIN]

Rating a route before you've redpointed is sort of like saying you can run a marathon on 2.5 hours because you ran a mini in 1.25 hours. The second 13 miles are a bit different than the first 13 miles.

Great analogy man. So true.

I think people under estimate endurance routes sometimes. It's kinda cool though because enduro routes leave you with a false sense of accomplishment when you're working them.

[Spoonman]

I think it is possible to get a good feeling for the grade before sending it. If you are objective and have a good foundation of experience you will be close.

Conversely, the pump factor is deceptive and quite prevelent at the RED. A rating just does not seem to have much authority, unless it has been sent (fully experienced).

[Lateralus]

Ratings are subjective, that being said, I think a person with a good background at any given area can get pretty close to a rating without sending it. Heck, by the time you've worked the thing and know all the moves and nuances of the climb most of the time it feels easier when you get the send and you are tempted to downrate, i.e. redpoint vs. onsite ratings. Therefore, for me, the first go on something whether I send it or not is usually the best feeling I have for the route's onsite grade. You could almost rewrite the first post by exchanging the two routes for a lot of folks. I have a lot more access to powerful short climbs and I can't train endurance very effectively. Buff feels way easier to me than Ale 8, because I exerted less energy my first go on it than Ale-8 to achieve the "same" result as I 2 hung both routes my first go. If one neglects the burn factor at the Red, they really don't understand the climbing there very well.

[Roentgen Ray]

I find it very difficult to rate a climb that is not very close to my limit. I have a good idea where my limit is, and when I get on a route and work it (or it works me) then I feel like I can rate it. If I get on a route that is well below my limit, I would have a hard time knowing how to rate it. When 10a was at my limit, I could tell you what was 5.9 and what was 5.10. Now, It would be impossible for me to differentiate the two, unless it were trad. Then I could tell you 5.9 form 5.10.

[Zspider]

I redpointed Pulling Pockets (10d?) and couldn't even make it through Synchronicity on toprope without a fall, so I think it's at least 11b.

Whoops! Caught me rating a climb I can't lead!

I have always figured that the way you learn to lead Synchronicity is having the gear totally wired. Then I saw Goodguy lead it after he hadn't done it in a long time. He tried one piece, didn't fit, yawned, shook out, tried another piece, fiddled with it, yawned, shook out, and moved up and repeated the whole process. I was totally awed.

If I was leading that hog and couldn't get a piece in where I wanted it, I would start crying, shaking all over, and mess my pants all in one smooth action.

Just out of curiousity, how many women do you know of, besides the Yaz, who have lead Synchronicity?

ZSpider

[rhunt]

Artsay...

[Horatio Felacio]

scin...

[rhunt]

[Wicked Tribe]

OK, I'll have to disagree. I think you CAN guesstimate the rating of a route before getting a redpoint. If you've had to redpoint other routes that you eventually got clean and can compare the route to those routes and how they felt while working it, why can't you tell the approximate (or better) grade?

Also, forget all the overhanging endurance routes for a minute. Can you not tell the rating of a slabby route by top roping it clean? I think you can. What about a route that has super easy clips with hard moves in between? If you're resting at the same places either on TR or on lead why not give it a grade?

I think an experienced climber can tell at least the approximate grade of anyhting they get on. If you're working it hard, then why would you NOT know the grade?

[Danny]

I think the time to rate a route is after the onsight failure or success. After that it doesn't matter because you either escaped from the monster or are fertilizing the rodos with monster shit.