Voluntary route closure at Solar Collector
-
captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
My employer has travelled to China and he said that one of the most striking things in Bejing was the lack of the sound of birds.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
R-ray, you mentioned a few pages back the invasive/non-native classification.
Are we native to north america? During which epoch do we define baseline native-ness.
Evolution is not a static process.........., but I do agree that we should try to slow down the mass extinctions that we have caused. Unfortunately, unless we are talking about human population control and alternative energy its not going to happen.
Are we native to north america? During which epoch do we define baseline native-ness.
Evolution is not a static process.........., but I do agree that we should try to slow down the mass extinctions that we have caused. Unfortunately, unless we are talking about human population control and alternative energy its not going to happen.
Finally, someone with some sense! Thank you.Roentgen Ray wrote:Humans are a natural force, like a giant asteroid careening into earth or a nuclear holocaust. We are likely the cause of a worldwide mass extinction that has been underway over the past 100 years. Not coincidentally, the industrial revolution began about 100 years ago....
ok so the solution is?...Acer wrote:Finally, someone with some sense! Thank you.Roentgen Ray wrote:Humans are a natural force, like a giant asteroid careening into earth or a nuclear holocaust. We are likely the cause of a worldwide mass extinction that has been underway over the past 100 years. Not coincidentally, the industrial revolution began about 100 years ago....
-
squeezindlemmon
- Posts: 1452
- Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:02 pm
If people want to make this into a black and white issue, consider that birds/mammals will and often do abandon nests/dens merely because they detect human presence. Do you really belive you aren't bothering any other wildlife when you get out of your car at the parking lot at Solar Collector and loudly (to the animals who live there) bang up the trail? Why draw the line at closing the route, why not just close the entire area? I highly doubt the rat and all the other unforseen critters (who are really pissed because they aren't getting any internet threads in their honor) enjoy all of the people and their dogs/cats hanging out on other routes a few feet away from its temporary home and at the cliff base, considering it views us all as predators.
Who's staying home?
that's what I thought
I think on a whole climbers do practice a great deal of minimal impact to the best of our ability, when we enter the forest to climb. To the red specifically, we're using a fraction of the 3000 miles of cliffline and I have a hard time believing that climbers are responsible for the decline of any species in that 3000 miles. Anyone, notice the oil field at SC, read about the widespread clear cutting in the region, hear all the freaking ATV's, etc..
I knew the rat was there and climbed the route, may the Red someday recover from my selfish ecoterrorism.
Who's staying home?
that's what I thought
I think on a whole climbers do practice a great deal of minimal impact to the best of our ability, when we enter the forest to climb. To the red specifically, we're using a fraction of the 3000 miles of cliffline and I have a hard time believing that climbers are responsible for the decline of any species in that 3000 miles. Anyone, notice the oil field at SC, read about the widespread clear cutting in the region, hear all the freaking ATV's, etc..
I knew the rat was there and climbed the route, may the Red someday recover from my selfish ecoterrorism.
"Good things take time, impossible things take a little longer"
Percy Gerutty
Percy Gerutty
In my opinion, the solution is to act carefully where possible. This is not the extreme case of disturbing a common snake (like the ones killed at Solar COllecotr) or a common brown spider. It is an endangered animal as identified by a qualified scientist. No one has said to shut down every damn cliff where a species of wildlife might happen to want to live. All many of us are saying is to protect endangered species.rhunt wrote:ok so the solution is?...Acer wrote:Finally, someone with some sense! Thank you.Roentgen Ray wrote:Humans are a natural force, like a giant asteroid careening into earth or a nuclear holocaust. We are likely the cause of a worldwide mass extinction that has been underway over the past 100 years. Not coincidentally, the industrial revolution began about 100 years ago....
How do you know which rats you have had run ins with in the past? All of these wonderful stories do NOT mean that these rats are not endangered. It just means that we obviously interact with them in some way. Why is it so difficult to leave the damn nest alone?
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.
-Everlast
-Everlast
Also, I appreciate Shannon's recommendations to refrain from climbing at cliff's where rats may make a habitat. That is not, however, the issue in this case. In this case, there is a clearly identified nest of a threatened species. Of course we are interacting with these rats. We climb near where they live. When we find a nest, however, lets leave it alone.
This is not some slippery slope where if we "happen down this road" then we'll end up never able to climb. That is such a paranoid view that it is ridiculous.
This is not some slippery slope where if we "happen down this road" then we'll end up never able to climb. That is such a paranoid view that it is ridiculous.
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.
-Everlast
-Everlast
Why not do your part and protect the species until it makes a comeback and is taken off the endangered or threatened list? (shouldn't be too long with the republicans in control) Then you can go nuts and do all the things that could help wipe it off the face of the planet. Just work quickly. Then you won't have to feel bad about freaking out the animals with your loud noises. Ya see - you get to help twice.
Don't you know the earth is only 6,000 years old? The Gorge was created by the Great Flood. Hallelujah. So the rats will be swept up in the rapture. Yeah.
Like many of you I'm torn over this one. Many thoughts.
1. Though humans are fairly recent additions to North America (and their introduction was rapidly followed by the extinction of most of the large mammals), large animals moving along established routes in the woods is not unusual. If you've ever just gone bushwacking you can always find a deer path in the woods. People are extremely unlikely to veer off the path and they come and go pretty reliably. Compared to what was happening in the Gorge 120 years ago, a stream of climbers marching up to little slices of cliffline and spending the day standing there is sort of like the difference between a fly on your toilet seat and that 400lb woman you saw at the store the other day on your toilet seat. Just for a bit of perspective. At one point the Gorge was almost completely denuded. And thanks to some environmentalists the Gorge wasn't turned into a lake.
2. Don't you think a little sign at the base of the climb saying "beware of wood rat" would steer most people away? Only those few route tickers that absolutely MUST climb every single route until they send it perfectly while ejaculating will care. Ok, nobody sends a route while ejaculating but it's the same wank fest idea. So a little bitty warning sign I think would give the rat some peace.
3. It's a fucking packrat for Christ's sake! I can't imagine the sort of extremely low impact presence that climbers present (as compared to 4 wheelers, strip miners, basketball arenas...) would really bother a packrat very much. We just make their nests much more colorful! If you really feel worried about it, leave a handful of peanuts at the base of the climb or Rat Chow if you worry about allergies. Or carry a bag of food up the route with you. Bet that rat'll learn to like climbers in a hurry. If everyone that passes by does that it'll be one fat and happy rat and it'll have lots of babies.
4. We are witnessing the greatest mass extinction in the history of the earth. The way things are going now we'll outdo what happened in all the other mass extinctions that preceded this one. That includes the very first one where these crazy algae decided to create oxygen as a by-product of photosynthesis and killed off almost all the other bacteria on the planet. This one will be far worse than what happened to the dinosaurs. I imagine we'll survive it for far longer than we should but we'll just be a little blip on the timeline that some future form of intelligent life will try to figure out. But in the meantime, what are we to do about our little corners of the world? Give up? I think not... But at the same time I know that the beech tree isn't germinating in Kentucky very much. They're germinating further north. It may be that by the time I die there will only be very old and ill beech trees here. That's sad.
4. Every one of us drives to the Gorge. Most of us get our electricity from coal ripped from the heart of the earth leaving barren moonscapes that will never recover in a thousand generations. The place the packrat is threatened is not on some climbing routes in the Gorge. It's a few tens of miles to the east where the ridges are plowed into the valleys to expose the coal veins. They (the strip miners) are a little smarter now, mostly keeping the mines out of sight of the highways. But with a little work you can see. Fly around in a small plane. It's hideous. It's why my computer is on, my house is lit, and my heater is warm. I have compact flourescents and drive small cars but... but... it's all at a cost. The children of our children may not know much more than the nonsongs of the starling and house sparrow. They may never hear the chorus of frogs in the evening or marvel at the flight of bats at dusk. It's partly my fault. It's partly yours.
5. If you haven't suddenly realized you're crouched in a packrat nest, you haven't lived. Or at least you haven't explored many dry, secluded areas.
6. If it's a regular rat, kill the fucking thing. Same thing for nesting starlings, house wrens, house sparrows, and snakefish. Don't plant English Ivy or those damned ornamental pear trees. Kudzu was introduced by the USDA. Ask my grandma about primroses. I dare you.
7. Somebody please let me know when copperheads become endangered. Last time I heard there was no shortage. Removing them from an area heavily trafficked by humans seems legit to me. Especially if you cooked and ate them. Mmmmmm. Snakemeat. Tastes like chicken!
8. Packrats are greasy... or so I've been told.
Like many of you I'm torn over this one. Many thoughts.
1. Though humans are fairly recent additions to North America (and their introduction was rapidly followed by the extinction of most of the large mammals), large animals moving along established routes in the woods is not unusual. If you've ever just gone bushwacking you can always find a deer path in the woods. People are extremely unlikely to veer off the path and they come and go pretty reliably. Compared to what was happening in the Gorge 120 years ago, a stream of climbers marching up to little slices of cliffline and spending the day standing there is sort of like the difference between a fly on your toilet seat and that 400lb woman you saw at the store the other day on your toilet seat. Just for a bit of perspective. At one point the Gorge was almost completely denuded. And thanks to some environmentalists the Gorge wasn't turned into a lake.
2. Don't you think a little sign at the base of the climb saying "beware of wood rat" would steer most people away? Only those few route tickers that absolutely MUST climb every single route until they send it perfectly while ejaculating will care. Ok, nobody sends a route while ejaculating but it's the same wank fest idea. So a little bitty warning sign I think would give the rat some peace.
3. It's a fucking packrat for Christ's sake! I can't imagine the sort of extremely low impact presence that climbers present (as compared to 4 wheelers, strip miners, basketball arenas...) would really bother a packrat very much. We just make their nests much more colorful! If you really feel worried about it, leave a handful of peanuts at the base of the climb or Rat Chow if you worry about allergies. Or carry a bag of food up the route with you. Bet that rat'll learn to like climbers in a hurry. If everyone that passes by does that it'll be one fat and happy rat and it'll have lots of babies.
4. We are witnessing the greatest mass extinction in the history of the earth. The way things are going now we'll outdo what happened in all the other mass extinctions that preceded this one. That includes the very first one where these crazy algae decided to create oxygen as a by-product of photosynthesis and killed off almost all the other bacteria on the planet. This one will be far worse than what happened to the dinosaurs. I imagine we'll survive it for far longer than we should but we'll just be a little blip on the timeline that some future form of intelligent life will try to figure out. But in the meantime, what are we to do about our little corners of the world? Give up? I think not... But at the same time I know that the beech tree isn't germinating in Kentucky very much. They're germinating further north. It may be that by the time I die there will only be very old and ill beech trees here. That's sad.
4. Every one of us drives to the Gorge. Most of us get our electricity from coal ripped from the heart of the earth leaving barren moonscapes that will never recover in a thousand generations. The place the packrat is threatened is not on some climbing routes in the Gorge. It's a few tens of miles to the east where the ridges are plowed into the valleys to expose the coal veins. They (the strip miners) are a little smarter now, mostly keeping the mines out of sight of the highways. But with a little work you can see. Fly around in a small plane. It's hideous. It's why my computer is on, my house is lit, and my heater is warm. I have compact flourescents and drive small cars but... but... it's all at a cost. The children of our children may not know much more than the nonsongs of the starling and house sparrow. They may never hear the chorus of frogs in the evening or marvel at the flight of bats at dusk. It's partly my fault. It's partly yours.
5. If you haven't suddenly realized you're crouched in a packrat nest, you haven't lived. Or at least you haven't explored many dry, secluded areas.
6. If it's a regular rat, kill the fucking thing. Same thing for nesting starlings, house wrens, house sparrows, and snakefish. Don't plant English Ivy or those damned ornamental pear trees. Kudzu was introduced by the USDA. Ask my grandma about primroses. I dare you.
7. Somebody please let me know when copperheads become endangered. Last time I heard there was no shortage. Removing them from an area heavily trafficked by humans seems legit to me. Especially if you cooked and ate them. Mmmmmm. Snakemeat. Tastes like chicken!
8. Packrats are greasy... or so I've been told.
[size=75]You are as bad as Alan, and even he hits the mark sometimes. -charlie
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]