Voluntary route closure at Solar Collector

Post by **t bone** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:12 pm

Woodrats are all over the Red, Just spend a night at fortress on the main ledge. The critters are very abuntant in the Red. In my 20 yrs of climbing in the Red i have had many encounters with them. They dont seem to mind humans. The love shak had lots of woodrats, From my experience human presence does not disturb them. I have enough stories about these animals to write a book, but i have to go work right now.

Post by **Spoonman** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:50 pm

The fact that the rat did move to the hole after the route was set up should tell us a bit about the rat. Humans have a tendency to classify themselves outside of the natural world. We are natural animals and all our actions are natural.

I would assume that rat is not that worried about us, and has decided to make this hole hers because of the supply of food that she needs. So....maybe the climbers are helping the rat.

Post by **rhunt** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:17 pm

Spoonman wrote:The fact that the rat did move to the hole after the route was set up should tell us a bit about the rat. Humans have a tendency to classify themselves outside of the natural world. We are natural animals and all our actions are natural.

I would assume that rat is not that worried about us, and has decided to make this hole hers because of the supply of food that she needs. So....maybe the climbers are helping the rat.

Very good point Spoonman, I was waiting for someone to bring this point up. That route has been bolted for about 5 years now and this is the first time this rat has built it's nest for all to see. I think this rat is not at all bothered by our presents.

Post by **rhunt** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:21 pm

Maybe if someone hadn't KILLED all the copperheads in their nest at the base of that cliff there wouldn't be as many rats to worry about.

Post by **squeezindlemmon** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:23 pm

Those of you out there who have committed their lives to protecting endangered species, ask yourself this: what is the purpose of evolution? Isn't it the survival of the fittest? Are we really doing these "endangered" creatures a favor by "saving" them and "protecting" them? How far does it go? When dinosaurs were around and they starting being endangered, was there a group of something who were so concerned about them being gone forever, and therefore started saving each and every single one they could? Do we miss the dinosaurs now? Do we wish they would still be roaming around as they did before? Isn't it a little conceited of the human race to think that they have the ability to "save" these creatures? Is all this effort, in the end, merely a feeling of "I am like God since I decided whether these creatures survive or not"?

I'm not taking sides. I consider myself an environmentalist and do my part as one, but these questions still pop in my head. I know we have to experience but at the same time protect. But with the way the world works, in the long run, we're all going to evolve into something else. It's a noble thought, to save the world, but really deep inside, don't you think all the effort is futile? The world works in it's own way. Nothing you, me, or dinosaurs or any other creatures can do to change that. We just need to keep experiencing and remember to leave no trace. IMO, that's the best thing we can do.

Post by OZ » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:35 pm

Another question that begs to be asked: Where is the rat getting the toilet paper from? You are burying it or packing it out. Right?

Post by **rhunt** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:36 pm

Too bad Bill Ramsey doesn't participate in these discussions...

So to derail this thread...Question:

Is it our moral responsiblilty to protect endangered species when their numbers are being reduced as a direct result of human interference?

Post by **rhunt** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:39 pm

OZ wrote:Another question that begs to be asked: Where is the rat getting the toilet paper from? You are burying it or packing it out. Right?

I leave it in huecos now that i know it will serve a greater purpose than just cleaning my ass

Post by OZ » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:39 pm

squeezy,

Man's actions and environmental manipulations move just a tad faster than the evolutionary process. It's unfortunate that man's thought process, however, moves much slower.

Post by **Roentgen Ray** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:35 pm

Humans are a natural force, like a giant asteroid careening into earth or a nuclear holocaust. We are likely the cause of a worldwide mass extinction that has been underway over the past 100 years. Not coincidentally, the industrial revolution began about 100 years ago. Humans have to technical know how to drain every swamp, pave every patch of rugged terrain, and air condition any environment. It is my belief that we have the ethical responsibility to protect things that cannot protect themselves from bulldozers. Evolution occurs when you apply a stress to a system and the system has genes that can adapt. When a force becomes so strong such that the system cannot evolve, it dies. We can actually choose to make changes that kill a system or we can choose to protect a system. This only occurs if we recognize our impact. Walking past a turkey won't kill it, because it has lots of habitat choices. It can walk somewhere new. Walking over a turkey nest will, on the other hand, have an impact. I would say walk around its nest. You may have to walk a little further, but it's probably a good thing to do. As for evolution and the human system, do you really want creatures that can only survive in an environment that has been altered by humans. Since we are talking about rats, lets talk about the common european rat. These guys do great in cities with lots of humans. So do pigeons. Do we want a world of common rats, pigeons, and sparrows? That is what we are creating.