Voluntary route closure at Solar Collector

Post by **the lurkist** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:58 pm

I'l bite, asshole. Who is the anonymous bubba? If he is climbing at the SC and monitors this site, he probably isn't anonymous.
If you were joking then I am over reacting. If you are not, then ask bubba to do the right thing and leave the wood rat alone.
It is my route. I put it up and I developed the cliff along with a few others whon I speak for. I have some input here. Well, not really as we all shoud recognize the sensitive thing to do and no one shold have to say anything.

Post by **J-Rock** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:05 am

Personally I hope that this bubba will get his whole hand bitten off! I don't know if it is true or not (or whether this person will actually do it) but, it did kind of piss me off though.

Post by **J-Rock** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:09 am

It's a great climb! I think your route should stay open, but people should be courteous to the wood rat and not disturb the nest as they climb past. Otherwise, could you imagine the chaos created if we were to be so sensitive as to start closing all of the routes or cliffs with rats? Especially for a species that is neither threatened nor endangered in Kentucky.

Post by **the lurkist** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:58 am

Name one other route in the Red that has a Wood Rat known to be living in it.
There are no other routes that will be affected by this precedent. If others do arise, they will be a small single digit percentage of all routes. We as a community don't needto have a "climb at all cost' mentality. A little self censure profits us morally and spiritually as a community. It also sets the tone of what we think is important. Here is a hint- it ain't climbing.

Post by **Spragwa** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:22 am

I agree. I read the post on the rrgcc.com. There may be several clifflines that present a favorable habitat to endangered or near-endangered species. Climbers as a group should decide how to manage the issue. If there are short-sighted, self-entitled individuals threatening to climb a route to toss a woodrat then I hope that I see them try it.

Further, I will not apologize for discussing this issue and bringing it up J-Rock. It's absurd for you to blame this discussion on one individual's poor behavior. If this were not brought to everyone's attention the jackass probably would have climbed up to the hueco, bludgeoned the poor creature and hung him from a bolt as a souvenir. This began as a constructive thread discussing real issues. Several scientists have weighed in on this issue including a lady who has studied the creature. Have you? I mean aside from perusing a few web sites or reading a post written by someone who has read up on the creature? I take the word over a practicing scientist who has repelled down cliffs and studied the creature to a couple of fly-by-night amateurs with e-mail access.

Post by **J-Rock** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:27 am

All I'm saying is that these rats are everywhere at the Red and I don't see why we should start closing routes because of it. I can easily think of several routes that I know from personal experience and those of my partners that have wood rats living in them.

Also, for your information I was an assistant biology instructor at Indiana University for 2 years (known as UTI's there) for a course known as "Evolution and Diversity" and another one known as "Biological Mechanisms". I also have experience working in several biological laboratories doing all kinds of research and even some DNA sequencing, RFLP Analysis, PCR, etc. I've taken courses in vascular plants, field geology, field botany, ethology (animal behavior), virology, tropical biology, molecular biology, genetics, etc. etc. Currently I'm employed doing environmental work in an organic chemistry laboratory in Indianapolis.

Post by **Spragwa** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:34 am

That's not all that you said. In fact you expressly blamed this thread for threatening the life of the creature.

Your point is well-taken. I'm not even saying that the community should act in every instance. But this may be a clear opportunity to act. What about warning people that there is a woodrat there and asking them not to disturb it? We should act responsibly as a group and as stewards of the land purchased by the rrgcc.

I do not know of a single other climb with a woodrat in it. What routes have woodrats in them? I've never seen one. Then again, I don't climb very hard so maybe I haven't been on one.

Post by **busty** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:36 am

You have to strike a balance. If the creature is there, be a responsible person and leave it alone if you climb the route. The attitude that there are lots of wood rats in the Red so this one doesn't matter really doesn't seem like the best approach. The same could be said for buffalo, bald eagles, condors and any other endangered species before their numbers dwindled as a result of human activities.

The "who cares" approach could end up affecting access to climbing in the Red or prevent closed areas from ever reopening.

I certainly won't be disturbing the little beast since I don't see myself getting up an 11b anytime soon.

Post by **Roentgen Ray** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:23 am

J-Rock, what do you think John Muir would do. You have quoted him, so you must respect his opinions. If memory serves me, he is best known for his zero trace ethics. Climbing is far from zero impact, but should be done with respect of nature even if it is inconvenient at times. There a couple of routes at solar that are equivalent to Green Horn and just as fun.

As for the persistance of rats, the rats we all think of as rats are all Euro trash brought over on ships and what not. They are truley weeds and if it were possible to extirpate them from the America's, I'ld say go for it. They out compete native species and spread disease. It's sort of like house sparrows (Euro-trash) and White-throated sparrows (all-american). Kill the Euro-trash and save the natives.

Post by **J-Rock** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:03 am

Good point Roe Ray, I've thought about this often. Muir would probably love to climb a route with a rat on it. I could imagine him saying hello as he climbed past while the little guy gave him a subtle nod of respect in return.