Ethical Dilemma
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marathonmedic
- Posts: 1557
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:01 am
Jared, here's the list of endangered species in KY:
http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/TESSWeb ... s?state=KY
You will note that flying squirrels are not on the list. In fact, no squirrels of any type are on the list, though three types of bats are. You might want to double-check what those critters actually were. You also might also want to talk to Rick about this. But I think you're free to do whatever.
When a wild area gets developed for climbing (or any other type of recreation) some critters are going to be displaced. It's a bummer, but that's life.
http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/TESSWeb ... s?state=KY
You will note that flying squirrels are not on the list. In fact, no squirrels of any type are on the list, though three types of bats are. You might want to double-check what those critters actually were. You also might also want to talk to Rick about this. But I think you're free to do whatever.
When a wild area gets developed for climbing (or any other type of recreation) some critters are going to be displaced. It's a bummer, but that's life.
J-Rock,
at risk of being heavy handed, i think it would be best to pull the anchors and abandon the climb (possibly the area) all together. should they be gone next spring, i would ask that you still leave the route undisturbed. here's why:
first, as for dealing with them right now, definitely leave it alone. you don't know if they have already had a litter or not. if they are getting ready to, then you're contributing to their decline. why they may find another place this fall, that's wasted energy and time and could prove a deciding factor for the fury couple. if they have mated, maybe she's pregnant, maybe there are little ones that weren't in at the time. maybe they flew off with them. even if it's just the two with no plans of mating, a nest is a home. you shouldn't displace them from their home, a: because it's not ethically right looking at it from a bio- or eco-centric viewpoint, b: it, in my opinion, does serious harm to the image of climbers and their environmental impacts (though i don't know their exact arguments, i'm sure the state parks would love to use this as an example to keep pocket wall closed).
second, leave the climb be forever. if it's been known to provide shelter to the animals once, i'm sure it has more in the past and will into the future. consider what we call our group at the red: the climbing community. our community is expanding. that's both good and bad. ask people what's going on in vegas. or atlanta. new york. those "communities" have sprawled and its the surrounding environments that have been squeezed out. this is the story of the world. development vs. natural spaces. how far will we let our community develop into the realms of other communities?
now, i'm not putting "stop development" signs up. rather, i'm asking the questions that we just need to consider. "are we doing this in a smart manner? are we doing what's best for our community and the environment? are we doing what's best for the long-term, with respect to access and environmental integrity? is this development for development's sake or is this worth the impact? what are the limits? how far should we go?" and another extremely important and serious question: as climbers, how much do we care about the environment and how do we view it?
on the whole, i don't know how i feel. i'm extremely grateful for the climbs that are up and that have been put up recently. they've generated a lot of excitement and enthusiasm. i even feel that the climbing helps generate a greater responsibility to the environment and brings up good considerations on multiple and responsible use. but we need to look closer and more critically. is this what we want? what are we gaining and what are we losing?
"When a wild area gets developed for climbing (or any other type of recreation) some critters are going to be displaced. It's a bummer, but that's life."
We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect.
A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise. -Aldo Leopold
J-Rock, i'd be happy to give you my copy of sand county almanac with the round river essays (which are really the heart of leopold's philosophies). they're interesting, good brain food. but it's also your land and your call. good luck. it's no easy decision. (or maybe it is and i've just made a bigger issue of it..?
)
at risk of being heavy handed, i think it would be best to pull the anchors and abandon the climb (possibly the area) all together. should they be gone next spring, i would ask that you still leave the route undisturbed. here's why:
first, as for dealing with them right now, definitely leave it alone. you don't know if they have already had a litter or not. if they are getting ready to, then you're contributing to their decline. why they may find another place this fall, that's wasted energy and time and could prove a deciding factor for the fury couple. if they have mated, maybe she's pregnant, maybe there are little ones that weren't in at the time. maybe they flew off with them. even if it's just the two with no plans of mating, a nest is a home. you shouldn't displace them from their home, a: because it's not ethically right looking at it from a bio- or eco-centric viewpoint, b: it, in my opinion, does serious harm to the image of climbers and their environmental impacts (though i don't know their exact arguments, i'm sure the state parks would love to use this as an example to keep pocket wall closed).
second, leave the climb be forever. if it's been known to provide shelter to the animals once, i'm sure it has more in the past and will into the future. consider what we call our group at the red: the climbing community. our community is expanding. that's both good and bad. ask people what's going on in vegas. or atlanta. new york. those "communities" have sprawled and its the surrounding environments that have been squeezed out. this is the story of the world. development vs. natural spaces. how far will we let our community develop into the realms of other communities?
now, i'm not putting "stop development" signs up. rather, i'm asking the questions that we just need to consider. "are we doing this in a smart manner? are we doing what's best for our community and the environment? are we doing what's best for the long-term, with respect to access and environmental integrity? is this development for development's sake or is this worth the impact? what are the limits? how far should we go?" and another extremely important and serious question: as climbers, how much do we care about the environment and how do we view it?
on the whole, i don't know how i feel. i'm extremely grateful for the climbs that are up and that have been put up recently. they've generated a lot of excitement and enthusiasm. i even feel that the climbing helps generate a greater responsibility to the environment and brings up good considerations on multiple and responsible use. but we need to look closer and more critically. is this what we want? what are we gaining and what are we losing?
"When a wild area gets developed for climbing (or any other type of recreation) some critters are going to be displaced. It's a bummer, but that's life."
We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect.
A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise. -Aldo Leopold
J-Rock, i'd be happy to give you my copy of sand county almanac with the round river essays (which are really the heart of leopold's philosophies). they're interesting, good brain food. but it's also your land and your call. good luck. it's no easy decision. (or maybe it is and i've just made a bigger issue of it..?
)and great loves will one day have to part -smashing pumpkins
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marathonmedic
- Posts: 1557
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:01 am
Hmm... thank you for all of the thoughtful posts. The amount of stories that I've heard today about close encounters with flying squirrels in the Red is remarkable.. stories from Military Wall, Pebble Beach, Pocket Wall, The Motherlode, etc. etc.
I've done some research and concluded that flying squirrels are not on the threatened or endangered species list. These cute little critters actually take over other animals' nests and keep them for their own. I'm going to leave this route alone for 3-4 weeks and check it again later. Being the fall/winter season I'd be surprised if there was a litter. If this were the case it would definitely be left alone. However, I realize that this is their home, not ours. But, I also feel that there is no shortage of available habitat for them elsewhere in Muir Valley. Probably a nearby tree or cliff face.
I might bolt the route and leave the nest. Then the squirrels can decide for themselves if they wish to stay or move to a new neighborhood. Ultimately I think the decision is for Rick or Liz to make since it is their land. I will abide by their wishes.
I've done some research and concluded that flying squirrels are not on the threatened or endangered species list. These cute little critters actually take over other animals' nests and keep them for their own. I'm going to leave this route alone for 3-4 weeks and check it again later. Being the fall/winter season I'd be surprised if there was a litter. If this were the case it would definitely be left alone. However, I realize that this is their home, not ours. But, I also feel that there is no shortage of available habitat for them elsewhere in Muir Valley. Probably a nearby tree or cliff face.
I might bolt the route and leave the nest. Then the squirrels can decide for themselves if they wish to stay or move to a new neighborhood. Ultimately I think the decision is for Rick or Liz to make since it is their land. I will abide by their wishes.
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder
It looks like flying squirrels are endangered species in the US. Check out this website http://endangered.fws.gov/wildlife.html. Search for "squirrels" - two species come up, including one that typically lives in TN and NC. If federally protected, the fact that they aren't on the Kentucky specific list from the previous post won't matter to the wildlife service.
Busty, thanks for the link. It was very helpful. I read through the recovery plan and much of the relevant information. It appears that the two species of flying squirrel that were listed are actually a nocturnal subspecies that only occur in a small region of the Appalachians on the North Carolina/Tennessee border (the northern Carolina flying squirrel). The other subspecies is the Virginia flying squirrel whose niche consists of another mountainous area on the Virginia/West Virginia border. The endangered status covers these four states and the range does not include Kentucky (which is a different non-endangered species of flying squirrel). That link had so much information that I'm going to be late for work now and I'll need to stay later to get all of my work done. No climbing for me tonight.
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder
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squeezindlemmon
- Posts: 1452
- Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:02 pm
hmmm. now, i don't care what you choose, as that decision should be your own, but this logic is a bit odd. the flying squirrels who live there could say that there is no shortage of available rock to climb elsewhere in Muir Valley. Probably a nearby cliff face.J-Rock wrote: But, I also feel that there is no shortage of available habitat for them elsewhere in Muir Valley. Probably a nearby tree or cliff face.
[size=75]i may be weak, but i have bad technique[/size]