Ground fall at Torrent, Sunday Sept 5

[SikMonkey]

Strange ain't it? You leave such an important decision up to what I think can be one of the most flawed systems ever created: Human judgement.

Mj

[TradMike]

You can always tie in if you want, just leave enough slack in the system to allow for a soft catch and not enough to let you slam into the first piece of pro/bolt. It's also possible to tie into a tree and escape from the belay even if you weren't already tied in. If you want to go some direction to a tree let out slack as you move keeping the leader level. I had to do that in the course I took. Also, I don't know of many one pitch routes where you couldn't just lower them to the ground. And in multi-pitch climbing you are always tied in.

If your belayer loses awareness on you with a grigri and you are an animal and don't have a prussic, hand over hand down the line after you fix it. Otherwise, build and anchor around the last piece or rely on a single bolt, in a pinch were seconds matter. Then prussic down the line.

[Crankmas]

if you can't blame it on a woman then nothings wrong

[RQClimber]

We had a staff person here that was a pretty big guy and his belayer was quite small, About 125lb difference between the two of them. When outdoors she would use a long sling and attach it to their backpack which they would fill with some stones. It took some experimentation on getting the weight about right, but when he fell, she got pulled up a bit but then stopped when she got to the pack weight. Sort of a psuedo-dynamic belay. He never complained about smacking the wall hard.

Also, I would be very willing to host a self-rescue course at RQ. Everyone could brush up on those skills and possibly learn new ones. We would bring in a qualified instructor. We have spoken with Tony Barnes about doing that in the past. It would be something that we would just charge to cover the cost of the instructor. Anyone else out there qualified to teach such skills, please email/PM me. If this is something of an interest.

[Spragwa]

I never leave out slack until my climber has clipped the third bolt, at least. Once when I was belaying someone on Breakfast Burrito, my partner was trying to clip the third bolt but couldn't pull her head together to do it. She fell. I had to sit down to keep her off the ground and she came down below the first bolt. Honestly, if people hadn't commented to me early on when I started belaying leads, I'd have had a "power loop" out and she would have decked. My limited experience has shown me that you just have to be aware as a belayer. It freaks me out if I'm going to the second bolt and I look down and see a loop.

[vic]

I can't believe that it took 5 pages of discussion to simply state the solution; a solution that has been known for years, yet rarely used at the red:
Belayer: Tie-in (ANCHOR yourselves)
When doing so, extend your anchor - prevent your head from reaching first clipped bolt AND overhead environment... unless you like head injuries.

I could easily prove that a gri-gri could be as dynamic as a ATC... but fortunately, I won't have to because others have. Read the latest magazine as mentioned by Rick, and read what TradMike has just posted as well.

Pure simplicity... don't make it more complicated than it is... and know how to use it well.

All of this brings another subject of discussion: Learning.
What is the percentage of climbers who have taken formal climbing classes?
Formal belaying classes?
Hummm, seems to me that we learn from friends, family - without norms, and just like driving. Goes to show that perhaps the real norm should be changed... but hey: it's just a thought!

[kneebar]

I agree with Vic and the others, the belayer should tie-in at times with some slack. I am a light weight that belays 1 partner close to twice my body weight. I use a gri-gri for a couple of good reasons. 1- It is a litlle more insurance in a big fall 2- If you are knocked out (the belayer) during the fall the gri-gri will catch the climber. Say like by the hold the climber tore off during the fall. I know this from experience.

[J-Rock]

I've been dropped by three different people using ATC's (resulting in groundfalls), but I have NEVER been dropped by someone belaying me with a gri-gri. I will not let a gumby belay me with an ATC unless I'm certain that I'm on a route well under my ability and I feel confident that I won't fall. Recently I was dropped at the climbing gym while being lowered on an ATC. This has happened to me too many times in the climbing gym. I don't understand why people have so much difficultly catching falls or lowering climbers with an ATC. The ATC and the gri-gri are so simple to use and both are effective, yet belayers constantly make mistakes. Fortunately I have complete trust in those I climb with on outdoor routes.

[rhunt]

dude three times? that's sick

[the lurkist]

I will weigh in.
Steep sport climbing lends itself well to the dyanmic belay. The notion of the belayer always tieing in is misplaced and if applied across the board (i.e. inexperienced folks looking for inout red this thread and take away this message and actually start tieing in) I predict more injuries from tight roped climbers with the attended ankle fractures, etc..
While I realize the message here has been a dynamic belay while tied in, I think that is more than most people will be able to master on a trial and error basis. How many tight roped leaders will it take for them to get it right?
If the weight discrepancy between the leader and the belayer is so great that tethering the belayer to the ground seems the only way to keep them from being extruded through the first bolt, then the leader should get someone else to catch or make plans to not fall.
The Gri Gri is a fine device, but does lend itself to the inexperienced belayer over simplifying its use. In fact its major flaw is that it doesn't have any mechnism for impedance to minimizing its use. What I mean is that maybe it should be redesigned so that it forces the user to go throuugh inconvenient extra steps that would prevent inadvertant opening (greater resistance on the cam?) The threshold for correct use and incorrect use is a small one and can be danced across too easily.
Hugh