Yes, there are certain intangibles in belaying and keeping your brake hand on the rope is one of them. So is being acutely aware of your surroundings and knowing what you will do in the event your leader falls. These are things the belayer is responsible for everytime he/she ties in, regardless of how "safe" things look.
Mj
Ground fall at Torrent, Sunday Sept 5
Rick Weber wrote:
Regardless of the belay device used, we aren't much use to our leader when the lights go out.
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That's not exactly true, Rick. With the exception of freak occasions like the one you mention, hands-off on a grigri is going to lock on fall. It has a high propensity to "fail-safe". The biggest problem with a grigri is that it is so safe that it invites user recklessness which a grigri cannot compensate for.
And I agree with what you say about anchoring. I learned rockclimbing from the old Royal Robbins books, and they taught three elements of a belay: stance, friction (belay device), and anchor. Belaying with no anchor is walking on thin ice and, as you mention, a belayer better take a good hard look at the potential impact.
ZSpider
Regardless of the belay device used, we aren't much use to our leader when the lights go out.
************
That's not exactly true, Rick. With the exception of freak occasions like the one you mention, hands-off on a grigri is going to lock on fall. It has a high propensity to "fail-safe". The biggest problem with a grigri is that it is so safe that it invites user recklessness which a grigri cannot compensate for.
And I agree with what you say about anchoring. I learned rockclimbing from the old Royal Robbins books, and they taught three elements of a belay: stance, friction (belay device), and anchor. Belaying with no anchor is walking on thin ice and, as you mention, a belayer better take a good hard look at the potential impact.
ZSpider
Aw, Meadows, we all know you secretly love sprinklin' pixie dust and takin' those Peter Pan flights that result from dynamic belays. 
Seriously, some runouts, especially at the top, like at Defy the Laws... are pretty long. Tie a belayer down at some of these and you're right. A big owie.
BTW, the route setters at Muir have agreed to try to avoid long R-rated runouts.
Rick
Seriously, some runouts, especially at the top, like at Defy the Laws... are pretty long. Tie a belayer down at some of these and you're right. A big owie.
BTW, the route setters at Muir have agreed to try to avoid long R-rated runouts.
Rick
We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. - Randy Pausch
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
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Guest
I think everyone understands that a dynamic catch on the steep stuff is essential for protecting the leader. Rick has a good point, too, though. Theoretically, a long anchor, perhaps using a dynamic rope instead of slings, would be ideal. This would allow the belayer to come off the ground, but not too far off the ground, and would still allow for a dynamic catch. However there are rarely places to anchor belayers on the ground at the Red anyway.
I have never heard of an incident at the RRG where a belayer has taken a ride off the ground and dropped their climber because of the ride, and what they hit. Have there been any? Sure, it can happen, but I *have* heard of many cases of climbers being slammed into the rock in a lead fall... I'll opt for an unanchored belayer on the steep stuff. Lucky for me, though, I rarely pull my belayers off the ground.
I have never heard of an incident at the RRG where a belayer has taken a ride off the ground and dropped their climber because of the ride, and what they hit. Have there been any? Sure, it can happen, but I *have* heard of many cases of climbers being slammed into the rock in a lead fall... I'll opt for an unanchored belayer on the steep stuff. Lucky for me, though, I rarely pull my belayers off the ground.
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captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
Being anchored does not hinder the possibility of giving a dynamic belay except with the gri-gri. With plate/ATC/8 ring/muenter hitch belays the rope can be controlled with the brake hand to run some during a fall. From the justclimb.com glossary:
A gri-gri is a static belay device. A dynamic belay can only be given with it by jumping in the direction of the rope.Dynamic belay -
A belay method in which some rope is allowed to slip during severe falls. A dynamic belay can severely reduce the impact force from a serious fall, but can also severely kill you if not done properly.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
Sandy, neither have I heard of such an incident here in the Red. If it has happened, I agree, it is probably very rare.
However, last year, at Somersville Lake, we saw a guy fall, flipped head down, from the third bolt. His untied-in belayer -- a small lady -- went up like a rocket. His head came within inches of the ground before he sprung back a couple feet. In fact, his hand smacked the ground. Keep in mind the dynamic belay had slowed him considerably when he was nearing the ground, but it still must have been a hell of a ride watching the ground come up. If his belayer hadn't eaten that extra pancake at breakfast, it may have been a sadder ending to this epic.
I guess those of us who are anal retentive engineers could do an analysis of a climb before jumping on, taking into account the anticipated rope friction through the belay device and draws, the respective weights of the climber and belayer, length of rope out from the last draw, height of the last draw, anticipated stretch of the rope, etc. But the wise climber (i.e. all of you who are fortunate to not be one of us anal engineers) in the Red seems to have enough common sense analysis of a climb to avoid a climber decking due to a dynamic belay.
Interesting dialog on this thread. For the most part, I'll keep belaying untied here in the Red and will continue to tie in on big stuff elsewhere.
Rick
However, last year, at Somersville Lake, we saw a guy fall, flipped head down, from the third bolt. His untied-in belayer -- a small lady -- went up like a rocket. His head came within inches of the ground before he sprung back a couple feet. In fact, his hand smacked the ground. Keep in mind the dynamic belay had slowed him considerably when he was nearing the ground, but it still must have been a hell of a ride watching the ground come up. If his belayer hadn't eaten that extra pancake at breakfast, it may have been a sadder ending to this epic.
I guess those of us who are anal retentive engineers could do an analysis of a climb before jumping on, taking into account the anticipated rope friction through the belay device and draws, the respective weights of the climber and belayer, length of rope out from the last draw, height of the last draw, anticipated stretch of the rope, etc. But the wise climber (i.e. all of you who are fortunate to not be one of us anal engineers) in the Red seems to have enough common sense analysis of a climb to avoid a climber decking due to a dynamic belay.
Interesting dialog on this thread. For the most part, I'll keep belaying untied here in the Red and will continue to tie in on big stuff elsewhere.
Rick
We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. - Randy Pausch
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau