Route Development Recognition

[Spoonman]

First, it depends on the Book format and the authors descretion. Porter's select guide was trimmed down for ease and a low budget.

Johhny's two books were more robust and named more than one individual per climb quite often. Poter gave credit to his belayer's in the FA. That makes since, since it takes a TEAM to get the route ascended. Online quides do not feel the restraint of pages as much , so they tend to be more descriptive.

Give credit where you can. On my project at the Muir.......I gave credit to the two guys I had just met that day and had to beg for just one burn (not really) belay.

Conversely, the route I bolted for Brian or Peter. I do not think it needs to be published that I bolted it. Although I do not mind being listed as part of the TEAM.

[ATLdude]

SCIN- How many guidebooks? You're making this way to easy to prove my point... Lets see, I know of one called Red river gorge climbs (2nd edition), Porter and Snyds red river book, the Dixie Craggers Atlas, Caters New River book, Climbers guide to NC, hell man even Western sloper for Rifle, CO.(and 2 other Rifle guidebooks) lists the developer of the routes!!!!

Not to mention Sprawgas point- some peoples routes you don't want to get on...period. If the developer was Jeff Moll or similar, I might want to go look for this route. If it was (name left out) maybe I want to avoid it.

But lets forget all that--- What about the HISTORY of the climbing areas/routes? The names don't have to be in the main text, but (I think) the info should not be lost. Someone will find it interesting/important- just maybe not you.

Oh, and squeeze- NO, people who bolt choss are turing the outdoor climbing world into a gym- they should donate their drill/time for anchor replacement!!!

[SCIN]

I'm pretty sure that most of those guides list the FA and not the person who bolted the route.

If that's not the case, then FA shouldn't stand for First Ascent in most guides. It doesn't make sense to say someone is the FA if they weren't the first to send the route. I don't consider bolting a route an FA, do you?

[squeezindlemmon]

Atldude, who is to determine what's choss and what's not? Another person's choss could be another person's quality route.

[ATLdude]

Com'on man, you know as well as I do in MOST cases the FA was the developer. If that was not the case (route stolen or given away) the developer of the route still gets credit, as does the FA. (there would be no FA if the developer did'nt put the steel in the wall!!!!!!) pretty simple really

Oh, BTW Red River (2nd edition) lists FA's and FFA's when the HISTORY (esp of trad) was important - see my point???

[SCIN]

Yea man, I see your point about the trad lines. That's obvious.
I also know that usually the bolter was the FA. But I really don't think the FA is ever listed at the bolter. I've been covering the Southern Region in this online guide where John's book left off and whenever I added one of his routes for him he would have me put FA-Unknown if he hadn't done it yet. Don't you think he would've had me put FA-John Bronaugh if he did what you are saying in his guide? For example, he bolted Blankety Blank then gave it up to Dave. I put Dave as the FA and John had no issues with it.

If what you are saying is true though I'd like to change the way I record routes. That's the only reason I posed this question.

[squeezindlemmon]

What about the HISTORY of the climbing areas/routes?

Every person who climbs a route is part of the history of that route. How in the world would one go about listing all of them?
I think the question Ray raised was an inquiry of preference, and we got your point ATLdude, your preference is something along the lines of:

The More, The Merrier 5.10 *** (S)
Classic route that starts on the ledge leading up to beautiful orange handcrack. Finish after pulling roof to a series of pockets.
Fixe Ring Anhors. Handcrack/everything else. 10 bolts. 90 ft. Stays dry in light rain.
FATR: John Doe 1
FA: John Doe 2
FFA: John Doe 3
Bolter: John Doe 4
Belayer: John Doe 5
Route Cleaner: John Doe 6
Hardware donated by: John Doe 7
Trail (leading to climb) blazed by: John Doe 8
Other people who are part of the team: The 3 stooges

And that's okay if that's your preference. I don't think there's a right and wrong way of doing it. I personally (key word personally) still don't think it's necessary to list the bolter's name in a guidebook.

[Guest]

I agree with Squeeze. There are some n00b bolters out there who might go nuts with the Bosch for fame, glory and publication...

[Wes]

I think a lot of this has just been handed down from the trad only days, when there was only one person that put the route up. Or a team, where each person lead some part of the route. With sport routes it is different, because to me, it takes more skill to see a line and then bolt it well. Really, it is much harder to do a good job bolting a 5.10 then it would be to send it. I think the FA of stuff under 5.12 sport these days is less important, skill-wise, then the actual bolting of the route.

Thus, I feel it is good to know who bolted the route, but, I also know that listing the bolter is not in the "tradation" of U.S. guide books. Terry gets way more fun out of bolting a really cool 5.10, with safe falls and good bolt placements, then he does for sending the route himself.

Wes

[SCIN]

I find it ironic two of the most active developers in Muir at this time don't feel the bolter needs to be listed. You guys are too damn humble!