Online guidebook
So your saying that Gretchen being a member of an organization that she feels is doing more good than bad makes her sheepish. I don’t agree with everything the RRGCC does or stands for, and hell I don’t personally like a few of the members/leaders, but you have to admit they have had a positive impact on climbing in the Red. I think we all know Gretchen well enough that we can say she has her own mind and reacts on her own personal convictions not those of others.
Yes, I do admit they've done more good than bad.
Waving an RRGCC banner just reminds me of those people who drive down the road with those gay basketball flags hanging on their car windows. Also reminds me of those bastards in high school who used to paint their faces up at football games to reflect the team colors. Sorry Gretchen, you're not that bad. You know I love you.
Waving an RRGCC banner just reminds me of those people who drive down the road with those gay basketball flags hanging on their car windows. Also reminds me of those bastards in high school who used to paint their faces up at football games to reflect the team colors. Sorry Gretchen, you're not that bad. You know I love you.
I feel that I'm coming to this conversation a little late, but that hasn't stopped me, or others, before. I've watched this thread go on and on and end at the RRGCC crux...again. Foks the writing is on the wall, quite litterly in some places (the crags JB mentioned). Rock climbing isn't our God given right, although we all feel it should be. We are climbing on public land that is managed by a government entity (US National Forest Service) whose amount of red tape and levels of bureacratic hooey ofend those that fund said Service. Laws passed by our beloved government thrity or so years ago provide the directive for the FS to manage our lands. I've said these things before, and will say them again, in hopes that it will sink in with some of you and realize how the 'system' works and to hopefully understand 'what we're up against'.
Now about 'publishing' an on-line guidebook, hats off to you Ray. What you are doing is a handy tool and a valuable resource to climbers. I know your passion for climbing and seen your excitment when talking about your job, computers, databases, and things of that sort I don't understand. You are putting in a lot of your free time, free time is something we all value. In the middle of all this I wish you would take the time to consider the other side of the coin when it comes to adding those routes that are not yet 'approved' to your guide. The routes that you, Hampton, and others did are great accomplishments and in some cases take RRG trad climbing to the next level. It completly sucks ass that it had to happen during a time when rock climbing got the red alert on the FS's radar. But what is wrong with leaving a few routes out of the database for a little while? Aren't those routes pretty well known to a lot of folks by now? Haven't you and others sprayed about those routes since the day of kywilderness.com? The info is out there maybe there isn't a need to publish it just yet.
So about that RRGCC and personal attacks, the Coalition doesn't have time for them. Ray I invite you to one of the meetings. Come sit in and see what goes on, its hardly a room full of climbers dissing out personal attacks. There is serious business being done and there is no room to attack, flame, or privately lambast a fellow climber when it comes to business. I wouldn't give of my time to an organization who sits around and bad mouths anyone. Those of you out there that think that please come and join us for a meeting or two and you'll see. While a couple of people might have said something (I have no clue who said anything about anyone) don't let a few bad apples ruin the bunch. The same could be said about our privledge to climb.
Now about 'publishing' an on-line guidebook, hats off to you Ray. What you are doing is a handy tool and a valuable resource to climbers. I know your passion for climbing and seen your excitment when talking about your job, computers, databases, and things of that sort I don't understand. You are putting in a lot of your free time, free time is something we all value. In the middle of all this I wish you would take the time to consider the other side of the coin when it comes to adding those routes that are not yet 'approved' to your guide. The routes that you, Hampton, and others did are great accomplishments and in some cases take RRG trad climbing to the next level. It completly sucks ass that it had to happen during a time when rock climbing got the red alert on the FS's radar. But what is wrong with leaving a few routes out of the database for a little while? Aren't those routes pretty well known to a lot of folks by now? Haven't you and others sprayed about those routes since the day of kywilderness.com? The info is out there maybe there isn't a need to publish it just yet.
So about that RRGCC and personal attacks, the Coalition doesn't have time for them. Ray I invite you to one of the meetings. Come sit in and see what goes on, its hardly a room full of climbers dissing out personal attacks. There is serious business being done and there is no room to attack, flame, or privately lambast a fellow climber when it comes to business. I wouldn't give of my time to an organization who sits around and bad mouths anyone. Those of you out there that think that please come and join us for a meeting or two and you'll see. While a couple of people might have said something (I have no clue who said anything about anyone) don't let a few bad apples ruin the bunch. The same could be said about our privledge to climb.
I see they are still lopping off mountains in Eastern Kentucky. Electricity isn't cheap.
I do Ray & I love you too! We have been friends too long to let our seperate theories conflict with our friendship & I really respect that. Climbhigh, thanks for the good words! I really appreciate it. I strive to help the situation, not hurt it. I know that Ray is definitely his own person and that I may or may not persuade him to hold any banner but that doesn't mean I won't stop trying 
I just feel strongly enough and I am passionate about climbing and the community that I spend as much energy & time talking to people, trying to get their feedback, feelings, that I hope everyone has an opportunity to be heard and included in the decision processes.
Ray, your feedback on climbing at the Red is important and we would love for you to participate. I understand that this is not your bag but the offer will remain open to you!
I just feel strongly enough and I am passionate about climbing and the community that I spend as much energy & time talking to people, trying to get their feedback, feelings, that I hope everyone has an opportunity to be heard and included in the decision processes.
Ray, your feedback on climbing at the Red is important and we would love for you to participate. I understand that this is not your bag but the offer will remain open to you!
Just genuinely disengenuous.
THe Next RRGCC Metting
You are invited to the next meeting:
Dear Group:
We had so much fun we are going to keep going! We are going to build on our recent RRGCC strategic planning work and conduct a half-day meeting for Dec 7, 1-6 pm.
We met our goals for the Nov 15 &17 meetings of answering the questions for the Coalition (a.) that we want the organization to keep going, (b.) expand, and (c.) become solvent enough to compensate a staff and do land acquisition, and we identified the top six priorities for the Coalition for 2003: (1.) Forest Plan Revision (2.) Fundraising (3.) Improving the RRGCC (4.) Private Land Acquisition (5.) Stewardship Projects (6.) Climber Education and Outreach.
For December 7 we have scheduled enough time to get into the “means” to accomplish our “ends,” or goals, and objectives—in other words, come up with an Action Plan to accomplish those goals. This is usually what people think of when they hear the phrase, “strategic planning” but it is usually what takes the longest time to do because it is a creative process. Which is why we had limited our first two meetings to the “ends” instead of working on the full blown “means.”
I will send, a summary of the group’s work from the Nov 15 & 17 meetings, “homework” to be completed before we meet Dec 7, an outline of the process, and background information so we are prepared and can be more time efficient.
Everyone who attended the first two meetings is encouraged to come back. Others who didn’t make the first meetings are still welcome to join us. So, ask people you know, or missed the first meetings, to come along. The time of this meeting is set up so we can have a lunch reception before hand, or people can eat lunch before arriving and be home in time for dinner afterwards.
Thanks,
Shannon
Dear Group:
We had so much fun we are going to keep going! We are going to build on our recent RRGCC strategic planning work and conduct a half-day meeting for Dec 7, 1-6 pm.
We met our goals for the Nov 15 &17 meetings of answering the questions for the Coalition (a.) that we want the organization to keep going, (b.) expand, and (c.) become solvent enough to compensate a staff and do land acquisition, and we identified the top six priorities for the Coalition for 2003: (1.) Forest Plan Revision (2.) Fundraising (3.) Improving the RRGCC (4.) Private Land Acquisition (5.) Stewardship Projects (6.) Climber Education and Outreach.
For December 7 we have scheduled enough time to get into the “means” to accomplish our “ends,” or goals, and objectives—in other words, come up with an Action Plan to accomplish those goals. This is usually what people think of when they hear the phrase, “strategic planning” but it is usually what takes the longest time to do because it is a creative process. Which is why we had limited our first two meetings to the “ends” instead of working on the full blown “means.”
I will send, a summary of the group’s work from the Nov 15 & 17 meetings, “homework” to be completed before we meet Dec 7, an outline of the process, and background information so we are prepared and can be more time efficient.
Everyone who attended the first two meetings is encouraged to come back. Others who didn’t make the first meetings are still welcome to join us. So, ask people you know, or missed the first meetings, to come along. The time of this meeting is set up so we can have a lunch reception before hand, or people can eat lunch before arriving and be home in time for dinner afterwards.
Thanks,
Shannon
Just genuinely disengenuous.
Sparky, it stems back to the archaic Rock Climbing Management Guide (RCMG) drafted by the Stanton Ranger Distric back in the mid 90s. In that p.o.s. document it talks about publicising new routes. So not only can you not bolt lines or install anchors, you can not publicise routes you have done. So you and your partner can go find that stellar handcrack at your super secret crag in the backwoods and climb it to the top and rap off all you like, just don't tell others. Thats right don't tell anyone, print it in a book, or 'publish' it in some sort of public forum. See what I mean about archaic? With some work we can change that silly RCMG.
I see they are still lopping off mountains in Eastern Kentucky. Electricity isn't cheap.
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sparky, it is unfortunate that it seems that way. The reason that currently making public land information available to the public is that the FS wrote it into law that rock climbers can not publish information about new routes in a hastily thrown together and poorly written Rock Climbing Management Guide. You can read it here: http://www.rrgcc.org/rcmg.php . Specifically check out the section on New Routes for the wording. Now, since this is a law, every time we talk about a new route or put it online, we are putting climbing in the RRG at risk. It is unfortunate, unfair, and it pisses us all off... but it is a law that others may use against us if we continue to break.
One of, if not the first goal of the RRGCC was to repeal this guide and get a new guide in place. Through the Memorandum of Understanding that climbers signed with the FS, the FS pledged to work with the RRGCC to do just that. It hasn't happened yet, but a new forest wide plan is in the works which could either kill us(climbers) or save us. The RRGCC is still working hard and things are definitely looking up, but we(climbers) really can't afford a setback.
One of, if not the first goal of the RRGCC was to repeal this guide and get a new guide in place. Through the Memorandum of Understanding that climbers signed with the FS, the FS pledged to work with the RRGCC to do just that. It hasn't happened yet, but a new forest wide plan is in the works which could either kill us(climbers) or save us. The RRGCC is still working hard and things are definitely looking up, but we(climbers) really can't afford a setback.
:: I may be weak, but I have bad technique!! ::
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Pru
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