It ain't over

Post by **Thrax** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:21 pm

jefflehmkuhl wrote:Personally, I feel the problem is with the RRGCC not doing their homework before they spend money that other people donate to them. I mean, seriously, who buys land before they have it surveyed to find out that they didn't buy what they thought they were buying???

You must be new to the real world. If the RRGCC had not bought the land, what do you think would have happened? Do you think the oil co. would have said, "come on in and climb boys and girls, park any ole place you like"? I don't think so. This is the bottom line. If the RRGCC had not bought the land, it would be closed to climbing. Forever. End of discussion. No second chances. Please let us know what you have done to secure climbing. I am sure you know all about homework.

Post by **kato** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:48 pm

And they're not kidding about the difficulties in getting clear title to the land. One branch of my family's been in that area for about two centuries and they still fight over where the boundaries really are.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:21 pm

I'm pleased to see the RRGCC sharing information about the situation with Charmane. New info is up at: http://www.rrgcc.org/index.php?action=v ... cle_id=142

Post by **Johnny** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:25 pm

A survey would have cost over $15,000 and we still would only have had one surveyors opinion. Only a lawsuit involving all parties with an interest in the land will resolve the issue. I hesitate to guess what that would cost. A cost/benefit analysis just doesn't justify getting a survey.

Keep in mind that a "survey" isn't like somebody going out and shooting lines along coordinates that are on a plat (like might happen in a city). This kind of survey involves someone interpreting where a tree might have been, near a rock, by a stream and trying to figure out where a line might be located. It's far more about judgment and dead reckoning than measurements.

Post by **ynot** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:14 am

Sounds like they are coming around a little.

Post by **captain static** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:51 pm

I don't see too much coming around in Charmane's response. I am also skeptical about this getting resolved in mediation. If they do come to the table I wouldn't doubt that they'll have to be dragged to it kicking & screaming. Climbers need to find out what's up w/the hazardous materials? I think a request for a hazardous materials disclosure, including Material Safety Data Sheets, is in order. I am doing some homework on the environmental impact of stripper wells, but this may take some time as it is almost a 200 page document. I have also looked up what little I could find on Charmane's environmental record on the USEPA compliance website.

Post by **dhoyne** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:48 pm

Just out of curiousity, is Charmane legally liable for spilled chemicals and trash on the ground? There's an awful amount of oil and broken pipes lying all over the place. It's an environmental nightmare.

Post by **Alan Evil** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:13 pm

There should be a Federal review of all mineral rights in Appalachia. These rights were bought for a pittance in the 1800's and early 1900's from poor, uneducated people who never thought they'd be barred from their own land or, worse, that their land would be mined using strip mining or mountain top removal techniques. At the time mining was only done via tunnels and oil drilling wasn't an issue. Of course the Bush administration has made it easier for the rich bastards that run this country to turn the entire continent into a wasteland with no regard for watersheds, habitat, or the owners of the land.

Are any of you aware of how close we came to the Gorge being a lake? Lake Cumberland is a disgusting, polluted mess and that's what the Gorge would be like today if environmentalists hadn't fought it. Or have any of you ever hiked in Western Kentucky around the Green River? It looks like the moon where they've strip mined the land and it will stay that way for generations. Charmane Oil would do the same thing to the Murray Property if they felt it would gain them money this quarter. No thought of the future or of others. Fight the power and vote this fall.

Post by **captain static** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:19 pm

I have been informed through personal communication that a Phase I Environmental Assessment of the MPP was performed for the RRGCC in Sept. 2003. What might look nasty on the ground may actually not be that bad. It's usually what gets underground that can become a problem. In any event, we now have the right to scrutinize Charmane and hold their feet to the fire if warranted. Evil Bro, I was there in Frankfort marching against the dam.

Post by **jefflehmkuhl** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:38 pm

Thrax wrote:
jefflehmkuhl wrote:Personally, I feel the problem is with the RRGCC not doing their homework before they spend money that other people donate to them. I mean, seriously, who buys land before they have it surveyed to find out that they didn't buy what they thought they were buying???
You must be new to the real world. If the RRGCC had not bought the land, what do you think would have happened? Do you think the oil co. would have said, "come on in and climb boys and girls, park any ole place you like"?

No I do not think that the oil company would have said come on in. However, that's not the whole problem, considering that you STILL CANNOT climb there. We do not own it, so they can close it. doof

Thrax wrote: I don't think so. This is the bottom line. If the RRGCC had not bought the land, it would be closed to climbing. Forever. End of discussion. No second chances. Please let us know what you have done to secure climbing. I am sure you know all about homework.

Well, considering the fact that the RRGCC said that they know the land is not theirs and that sucks, but hey look we have all this other land that has "potential" and we own it. Well, how many people have seen all this land, and if it had such great potential, then why hasn't it already been bolted. And as far as what I have done for securing climbing...I go in with a no trace sort of ethics. I pack out what I pack in and I don't mouth off to locals. I think everyone on here knows that one big issue with access ANYWHERE is local/climber relationships.