returned project draws

Post by **Rain Man** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:37 pm

GWG wrote:
im not leaving anymore draws on routes.
Lesson learned!

Apparantly the lesson is "the measure of whether something is "right or wrong", "good or bad" is subjectively based on the RELATIVE difficulty of the climb and how many other climbers are better than you", and taking something that doesn't belong to you isn't really stealing if it's hanging on a piece of steel, bolted to a rock.

This whole thread is a bunch of crap. The bottom line is someone came and took something than didn't belong to them of obvious monetary value (we're not talking a $.50 quick-link here). I don't care if you find a PILE of gear on the ground, it STILL doesn't belong to you and should be delivered to a common, trustworthy location (typically Miguel's) until the party in question has the opportunity to retrieve his/her stuff. Theft is not debatable, it's black and white. If something is not yours, you have no right to it (hanging draws are open to use, because they are impeding someone else's use of the route). I've been holding back saying anything, because I figured ppl would let it die, but some of the reactions I've read are f'ing disgusting..."You left it on an "easy for me" climb, before the anchors, therefore I can take it if I want". Bullsh^t! Where IS it written that a person trying to send a 10 or 11 isn't trying just as hard (since it's all relative) as someone working on a 12 or 13? For people who talk about not "chasing numbers", that sure as hell sounds a lot like a "numbers game" to me.

It's very cool whomever took the draws returned them, but only because Aaron got his gear back, not because the returning party did anything "good" or "right" in this situation.

Two things infuriate me to the point of violence in this world; thugs/bullies (on global and individual scales) and thieves.

Gear etiquette indeed.

I know I'll probably make more enemies from this post, as I can tell many disagree with my thoughts on stealing, but I guess that's alright. I don't want to befriend someone who would wantonly take things that aren't theirs because they don't believe it's placement and subsequent withdrawal without removal is justified becuase of it's location and difficulty to them.

Post by **Rain Man** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:42 pm

Ok, it seems my post was so damn long several others posted and it HAS passed. Cool. My thoughts are the same, though. If there are mitigating curcumstances to this particular incident and I have not read the facts correctly as provided here, then I apologize to the offended party.

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:55 pm

yep, rainman, I'll be first to say your pulpit is a bit too tall for you...

first, if it is "black and white" as you say, then it should not matter if it is 50 cents or 50 bucks...taking something you didn't leave behind would constitute theft...plink..I hear a hole in your bucket of BS theory...taking a quick link SHOULD also be stealing to keep your theory consistent.

secondly, I am one of the few people on this entire board that admits that climbing IS about numbers...whether your number is 5.8, 5.10, or 5.13....most people use the numbers to gauge...those who say they only climb for themselves and for the love of being outside are liars....if that were so, then why wouldn't we see them merely running 50 laps on the same climb every time they come to the red?

stealing is subjective, my friend, whether you like it or not....for a middle class kid to steal candy is theft....for an impoverished third world lady to loot (haiti anyone?) somehow seems acceptable..after all, she has been oppressed, and we owe it to her, right? (btw, I don't agree with this, but it is the current social norm)

next, your are wrong by saying the returning party did not do anything "good" or "right" in this situation..are you on something today with that reasoning? correcting a mistake, whether an error in judgment or a blatant act of theft, is always a good thing...get off your relativism....lol (as I get on mine.)

so rainman, lets hear some consistency here...

the current "law" says that draws hanging halfway up a route, unfinished to the top, would constitute abandonment...stick clip to the chains if you need to, but don't leave it open to interpretation....

are you saying you've never picked up a quarter on the sidewalk, and put it in your pocket..? by your theory, the "right" thing to do is take it to a "trustworthy location" (currently the police station) for the owner to claim....how about if it was a buck, or ten? $100?..just curious, since we all hate numbers so much....

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:01 pm

okay, I obviously don't "get" some of this stupid sport shit. "Projecting routes." Okay, I have succombed to this one. Sort of. But leaving gear on a route seems risky and unneccessary to me. Of course I can barely climb my way out of bed, so maybe I can stretch my imagination around the convenience of doing this on the really steep stuff. If it's not sick hard and sees even occasional traffic, though, I think you are just stupid and rude to leave your draws. Even if they go up to the anchors. It's inconsiderate to someone who comes along and wants to get an actual on-site.

I'm sure that whoever took Aaron's draws had no intention of keeping them. But I also believe that the person would have been completely justified in not going out of their way to find out who those draws belonged to. It was unclear even by the ghey sport rules what was going on there.

To a trad climber, they would be booty no question, and not all traddies stick to trad climbs or understand all this goofy sport bullshit. It's unfair to assume that the person who had Aaron's draws was a bad guy at all. In fact, since he returned them, he obviously was not.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:04 pm

hey Piggy. We posted simulaneously. Was it good for you, too?

*lights up cigarette*

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:07 pm

there are no set "rules" in climbing, this applies to left gear as well.
in fact in the most recent r and i there is an article on the subject.
preplaced gear is the same on trad and sport to me, in some situations.
say someone is working welcome to ol' kentuck, they leave 4 cams in the crack and draws on the anchors. looks just like leaving 15 draws on the madness cave.
each person has their own "rules" and each situation has to be judged on an individaul basis.
maybe i was wrong to not finsih out the climb, but know i have the gear and it's all good.
each person/situation/climb has to be considered on its own.
your ethics aren't mine and mine aren't yours.

Post by **SCIN** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:32 pm

aaron wrote:i thought that clipping the anchors was the crux.
that hold seemd to be real good to me, 2 pad jug.
the pump was the crux or maybe the 5 or 6 clip. i don't know though.

Yea, it's the coolest hold though......like it was put there just to clip the anchors from. The most symmetrical hold I've ever seen. Just a flat out pretty hold. I wanted to make love to it.

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:33 pm

i did make love to it. now it is the crux hold due to the man goo on it.

Post by **Legion** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:38 pm

yeah, I heard him whining for about 2 hours sat. Apparantly the hold finally gave it up after feeling sorry for him.

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:46 pm

you heard the screams? where were you at during the love session?