Pocket Wall, will access ever be restored?

[tomdarch]

Wait? Did you just use the words "lobbying" and "ethical" in the same sentence?

But seriously, the word "lobbying" covers a broad set of actions, most of which add up to what I view as 'unethical'. But if you genuinely believe that a certain piece of legislation is broadly beneficial to your state and it's people, then interacting with your legislators (particularly when there is no quid pro quo exchange and no monetary exchange) in order to persuade them to pass that legislation isn't just ethical, it's your civic duty. (and I'm saying that totally without any intended irony, in an old-school liberal, "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" kind of way!)

Do you have some other situation that precludes you from, as a citizen, encouraging your legislators from enacting legislation?

[Spragwa]

Umm. It's unethical because I'm a lawyer for the State and our ethics committee says it is. My relationship with the legislators was established in my official capacity and it would be a misuse of my position to actively lobby for anything. Now, showing support or minor assistance wouldn't be a problem, which I have done. There are statutes and regulations that limit any active lobbying.

[tomdarch]

Ah! That makes sense. Too bad that so much unethical crap must have been done in the past that rules like that are needed. Given what a sleaze pit Springfield (Illinois) is, I wonder if we have that rule...

Anyway, is there anything that an out-of-stater can do to help?

[tomdarch]

Umm. Why don't you make a reservation at a hotel with a credit card, print off the order and then cancel the reservation before you come?

Hey! I was getting all Mr. Smith about ethics, and you go and suggest ways to evade our dear Homeland Security folks! Shocking!

Better hope that Patriot II doesn't pass, or you're dead meat for that posting! From an article about Ashcroft:

Then, according to Carrie Griffin, a young Justice Department intern who was at the prayer meeting, the attorney general turned to another matter. He wanted to make clear that forgiveness, while perfectly fine in religion, had no place in the Justice Department. "The law is not about forgiveness," he said. "It is oftentimes about vengeance, oftentimes about revenge."

gulp! (that and he thinks that calico cats are tools of the devil, but I digress...)

[twetherbee]

Climbing in the Red has to be good for tourism. We live in Michigan and drive 11 hours to get there. There is a fair bunch of us in the Traverse City area that make the trip, so tell the state park people to get with the program and open up climbing in the parks.

[Spragwa]

LOL! TDarch, you got me. I used to be an immigration attorney so my thoughts go automatically to "working within the law" He he he.

[tomdarch]

Climbing in the Red has to be good for tourism. We live in Michigan and drive 11 hours to get there. There is a fair bunch of us in the Traverse City area that make the trip, so tell the state park people to get with the program and open up climbing in the parks.

Don't worry too much about climbing on the State Park land. This thread is about just one (admitedly very nice) area that came under state park control, and was, thus, closed to climbing. There are some other good potential areas on the State Park land, but they certainly aren't "make or break" areas for a trip to the Red.

The rest of the 2000 (?) or so routes at the Red are on private or other types of public lands and are very much open to climbing! (Check out the Online Guidebook at the top of the page for a listing of almost all of those routes)

Also, keep in mind that the "Southern Region" crags that were recently purchased by the Red River Gorge Climbers' Coalition are temporarily closed while the Coalition deals with the obnoxious Oil company who seem to be confused about the fact that they don't own the land. The closed crags include The Arena, Oil Crack, Drive By, Bob Marley and a few others. Don't worry about those closrues either, there is still more than enough to climb.

[captain static]

John Gill put up some classic problems in Pennyrile - http://www.thinkwestkentucky.com/rockcl ... le_sf.html
There are several other closed State Park climbing areas detailed at the above website. The West Kentucky Corporation would be a good resource / organization to work with on this issue.

[captain static]

Oh, & the OCA had a similar experience at John Bryan State Park / Clifton Gorge State Nature Preserve. Climbing was closed, in part, due to run-ins between the Park Superintendent & climbers. Via much lobbying & education the stance of the Park / State softened enough that a climbing area was established in the State Park. A year before the Park Superintendent retired, he softened even more and allowed several new climbing sites to be developed. Then when he did retire, the State replaced him with someone who had climbing experience. Now the John Bryan State Park website has an on-line climbing guide - http://www.johnbryan.org/John%20Bryan%2 ... ptions.htm
So the moral of the story is with time & effort the relationship between climbers & State government can change.

[the lurkist]

I went to the OCA site, Capn. Nice site. I noticed the paucity of climbing in Ohio and am all the more impressed that you and other Ohio climbers have the motivation to be so pro active. Good job. www.ohioclimbers.org/OCA/areas.htm