Wanting your input on bolts

Post by **alien2** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:25 pm

I have little knowledge of the bolts used in climbing but have seen some practices that concern me. Lately, some of the bolts in the Red have been replaced. I noticed that the old bolt is just chopped off and a new hole is drilled for a new bolt. Is this the norm? Can you re-use the same hole of the old bolt? The reason for the concern is that the re-bolted climbs are approx. 20 years old and less. At this rate, in 100 years you will have five to ten different holes/bolts. After a while this is going to look like shit. It's not a legacy I want to leave to my children’s children. I thought a bolt existed that can be removed without damage to the rock and the re-use of the hole. Maybe in the old days they didn't use these but shouldn't we be using them in the future? I know of others that have used a special tool to remove a stubborn bolt and just sized the hole up for a new bolt. I do love clipping bolts but think we should consider what we are doing.

Post by **dhoyne** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:32 pm

You should be able to remove the old bolt, and fill the hole with epoxy that's color matched to the rock so you can't see it without a very careful look.

The reason for drilling another hole is that you don't know a)if the person that drilled the original hole drilled it straight (no wobbling of the drill), b)if the hole has widened from the tugging on the bolt, c) if the original bolt hole is in an area of weaker rock. Drilling a larger hole can sometimes be done if say the original bolt was only 1/4", but eventually you're going to need a huge bolt for that hole.

I don't think you'll see new bolts every 20 years; as materials get better, the useful life of a bolt will increase.

Post by **merrick** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:35 pm

i think this is a good point. I don't know too much about reusing old boltholes but given the soft nature of the rock it kind of seems like a good idea to make new ones. However I think there is an aesthetic solution to the old holes. From what i understand you can fill the old holes with glue and then cover the end of the hole with sand from the rock. I have heard that with practice this method can be almost indishtinguishable from the original rock. I think chris snyder did this in NC when they fixed that boulder problem.

it is like de-chipping the rock.

Post by **Wes** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:38 pm

Man, it can be hard as hell to remove the old stud type bolts. They spin the the hole, and without a heavy duty crow bar, won't come out. You risk really scarring the rock as well. That said, it is nicer to remove and refill the holes, but that would add way more time to a process that aready eats into the days climbing.

The new 5-piece style bolts are much easier to remove, so future replacements should be easier and cleaner.

Wes

Post by **hamsco** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:47 pm

In most cases, epoxy works good for the patching. But in some cases it is very hard to remove even the old cold shut or hanger, well aside the bolt. The common hard ware store bolt which was common in the late eightys and early ninetys, have treads which usually are deformed when hammered and also rust. These are best broken off which leaves the sheared bolt flush with the rock and makes epoxy harder to apply. Also on some anchors I have run out of epoxy and plan on returning later to finish the patch. The best epoxy I have found is a two part putty used by plumbers. It turns a gray green and blends in with the rock.

Post by **Crankmas** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:27 pm

Are we sure the world is going to last another hundred years, just kidding? hopefully the participants will find the proper filler and techniques, would the folks in Yosemite who started anchor replacement in earnest have any insight?

Post by **Lucinda** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:30 am

There is a nice hairline crack between an old bolt hole and one of the anchor bolts at the top of Altered Scale (I think) just to the rigth of Kampsight at Roadside, I noticed this last weekend. Looks like the face could eventually delaminate. Made me want a piece of pro for backup at the anchors.

Post by **Jeff** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:24 am

Only been on that route once right after it was put up and it was cracked then.
Johnny went back and added another bolt anchor.
Aren't there three of them up there?

Post by **vic** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:53 pm

Cutting the bolt seems to be a common practice now-a-days.
Perhaps adding only minutes to the task would be a pre-mix, 2-part expoxy in a tube, and a little bag of sand to camouflage the hugly left over.
It's possible, in theory. I hope that a technique (or a similar one) will be used soon, because our current practice does leave one wondering if we just stopped 1/2 way through the process of re-bolting.

That is a very good point though brought up by Alien.

Post by **canadaclimbergirl** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:41 pm

removing bolts sucks. prying them out with a crow bar scars the rock terribly...and I work on Granite, not sandstone..so i can imagine the mess that it would make in the Red.

Wes makes good points about the holes that are already there.
I break off the current stud with a hammer...just hammering it back and forth until it snaps, and then I cover the hole with an apoxy /granite dust mix that blends in. Then I drill another hole and go from there.

The bolts that were place 20 years ago were not likely stainless steel, whereas most of the ones placed today ARE stainless steel..therefore lasting much longer than 20 years. And...you guys are inland..away from salt water and air. Our bolts rust out much faster than yours because of our closeness to the Atlantic Ocean. Even still...they last a VERY long time.