The Kentucky Wall

[businessprofessional]

Thanks for the historical info. I've always wondered what the reason for the climbing/bolting ban was, and that's some good insight.

You mention 150+ miles of "user defined trails". What does that mean? Are those unsanctioned trails made "illegally" without the permission of the FS? Also, is that the FS's main concern - that more climbing will result in more impact issues?

[caribe]

"The anti-climbing proposal in the 1990s was not to ban bolting. It was to ban climbing, all climbing"
And then the moratorium set in, in which the existing routes were okay, but no new development. However, we still do not know why the initial climbing ban was imposed. I heard it was an autocrat with an axe to grind.

[heath]

I love the presupposition that I havent spoken to anyone from the FS. I had a lengthy conversation with a ranger a few years back about our development. Long story short...he didnt care if we go out and establish new trad routes. Of the 100 or so routes we have
established, less than 10 have had the original anchors replaced with bolt anchors. The whole "10 minutes later" thing is bullshit. Almost all of our routes top out or end on a ledge with a tree. We seldom leave webbing unless it is required to retrieve our rope. We keep our impact to a minimum.

I was unaware that there was a ban on new traditional routes in the DBNF. I am aware that we are using a loophole in the existing anchor replacement rules. I ran this loophole by the ranger and he saw no problem with it. He did not inform me that it was illegal to walk in the woods with a rack and climb up a cliff.

As stated earlier, our development and the development of others before us is no secret to the FS. It has been published both online and in every guidebook update. Not to mention....I have taken the time to speak to a ranger with the FS. Although it is apparently illegal, backwoods trad development is not a current concern of the FS...to the best of my knowledge.

Seeing that talking about this on here will do absolutely no good; What needs to be done to have this ban lifted? Why hasnt there been any progress in 27 years? Just because you saw access threatened almost three decades ago when the park was quite ignorant to climbing, doesnt mean the relationship is as tenuous today. I do agree we need to keep the relationship healthy. Thats why I have taken the time to let folks know what we are doing. But you wouldnt know that...because you didnt take the time to ask me. Based on some of your comments, you either know me or know someone who does. Which makes me wonder why you havent taken the time to speak to me about your concerns, in lieu of posting about it on the internet.

I dont want to speak on behalf of the FS, but I think they have a lot more to worry about than a few climbers roaming the rhodos climbing dirty cracks. It's not like the lemming climbers of the Red will abandon the Southern region to descend upon the barely charted woods of the North.

To answer the Original question.... I will try to submit the routes soon. There are some seriously good routes out there!

[caribe]

Heath I've been establishing new trad in the DBNF also; not nearly at your pace however. I celebrate your spirit of adventure while minimizing the impact. Leaving a sling on a tree on a cliff doesn't amount to any ecological impact that anyone has to worry about.

[:-)]

Heath, climbing [...] cracks is OK. Hiking into the woods with a rack is OK. The new bolts [...] are not. [...] Did you and the ranger discuss creation of a new trial? Did you get anything from the ranger in writing? Most importantly, can you explain why one ranger's opinion would even matter? Individual rangers do not have the authority to change FS policy. Most of those decisions aren't even made in Kentucky. Will that ranger remember the details of your discussion when 9B looks like Fortress and his boss starts asking questions? I doubt it. What happens when the next range or next superintendent wants an excuse to place new restrictions on climbing? Won't be hard to find one.

[Note: Edited by deleting unverified info]

[climb2core]

Local Rangers do indeed matter. I know of at least three separate areas in ky where local ranger ethics matter. If you can get in and get it done while they are OK with it, the precedent has been set and many times it will pave the way for the future. Either that or you can sit on your ass and wait for another 27 years the pass

[caribe]

"Most of those decisions aren't even made in Kentucky"
Ha ha well now I know you are wrong.

[rjackson]

Always interested in the topic, but not unless I know who I'm talking to . . . Heath uses his name, and I'll out Art Cammers as Caribe and Ian as climb2core (in case there's one last user that doesn't know). And yep, rjackson is r(uss) jackson . . . so what's up gumby ":-)" . . . ???

[heath]

If you read my post, I did mention the bolts. The original anchors were not safe or sustainable. I went back to one of the climbs after a winter season and a nut that couldn't be hammered out in the fall was easily lifted out the next spring. I'm not trying to sling a bunch of unnecessary steel in the rock. I am however, replacing unsafe, unsustainable anchors. Which as I understand falls within the guidelines. I'm not playing dumb, I'm merely interpreting a vague rule in effort to make a couple of climbs as safe as they can be. And I'm not trying to convince you to be ok with that either.

What trail building? The approach to Ky Wall follows an old logging road.

If you're concerned this wall is gonna be the crag that blows up 9B youre insane. It genuinely has one of the best 5.10 cracks in the Red and to my knowledge it's never been repeated. I only know of two parties that have visited that wall without me. And I've sprayed my face off about that route! Most Red climbers don't give a shit about the North Gorge. Fact. Especially that drainage.

[caribe]

"a nut that couldn't be hammered out in the fall was easily lifted out the next spring."
Do not conflate this fact with an unsafe placement. Nuts are of course directional and metals have a greater coefficients of expansion then sandstone so after cold weather the metal gets smaller faster and when it warms up slowly it partially unseats. However, weighting the placement again shouldn't be any less secure than weighting it the first time.