clif wrote:yes. the Red needs to make it affordable for the developers to bolt rock regardless of their willingness to pay for their ambitions?
Yes, for several reasons.
1) there is no top down bolting policy
2.) the community has a vested interest and direct benefit in using more sustainable materials.
3.) The soft sandstone required a ridiculously expensive bolt combo which far exceeds the cost of stainless steel bolts almost anywhere else in the US
4.) Over crowding is a problem and the new crags have helped reduce the stress
I don't know of a route developer in the Red that was using stainless 5 piece bolts before this, they are simply too cost prohibitive for a developer to afford on their own. Now nearly every new route going up is equipped with stainless 5 piece or glue-ins. Seems like a no brainer to me, allow them to use stainless for the same price as they were going to pay for the carbon steel and reduce the amount of rebolting and damage to the rock in the future. Many of those developing routes now are the same people who have donated their time rebolting routes in the past.
Ian, thank you for organizing and coordinating the Fixed Gear initiative. I can only imagine how much time and effort you put into all the posts, scaring up swag, buying and distributing bolts. Your efforts are clearly paying off. Thank you for having the vision and tenacity to create and grow the Fixed Gear and Ethics Initiative, plj
hi Ian, do you think it is possible that i am saying something that you don't get? i ask because you have repeated failed to demonstrate that you do by offering responses that did not take what i actually said into consideration. anyway, if you would like to know it what ways you could possibly be mistaken i will outline and try to help, just let me know.
Ian, I apologize, that was provocative and unnecessary.
I should emphasize, I admire what you are doing and may participate, it is definitely an improvement. I am also grateful that you are willing to exchange ideas.
Neglecting the links of your OP and the ensuing thread, obviously, 'sustainable bolting' is your focus. I disrupted your initiative (with pause) because I felt the need to draw attention to that part of climbing which does not involve climbing but exploration, discovery, surprise/astonishment and, i'd add, self-denial, among other, unexpected, things. The Miller Fork property could perhaps offer that for generations to come and i'd hate to let that go just because i couldn't piss off a few dozen people. hurrying to establish more routes, while diverse and unique, seem the 'same' in comparison. i think all the developers out there who you've established relationships with for the better are in it for more than an FA and the recognition in the guidebooks (i may be wrong and i'm sure they all have their own motivations), but the sense of having a singular experience with irreproducible landscapes is not sustainable if we concentrate too narrowly on routes established.
