Miller Fork

[dustonian]

Volunteer Wall is a phenomenal route.

[Scorl]

The root structure (which is the only thing holding any soil on those hills) was ripped out and pushed over the side so that the sand/clay underneath is immediately exposed to fast moving runoff. This is in no way sustainable on those hillsides, attempting to build trails like someone learned in a mountain biking seminar isn't going to work on the steepest parts of these hillsides. I would propose that you don't need to "construct" a trail there so much as you just need to trim some branches and let people walk it into a trail. Once that wears the root structure and detritus to a point where erosion becomes a concern, that area can be rested and a new, low-impact, path can be implemented.

I also totally agree that cutting out trees and roots until you get down to the clay layer is a disastrous practice for pretty much any trail and this needs to stop immediately. So many f'd up clay bottom slip'nslides from recent "trail day" efforts. Please leave the trees and topsoil, whoever decided gouging into the hillside was a good idea was dead wrong!!

In your opinions is there anything that can be done now to repair, or at least mitigate the damage done with the new trail cuts through the clay sections? When I was out there most recently I saw the work that had been done on the approach to Purgatory and remember thinking about what an enormous amount of material was removed to make that section of trail. Can some of the top soil or decomposing material be lightly collected from nearby areas and spread over the new trail cuts? Would that make any difference?

[ynp1]

Man you all need to chill a bit. I was just fucking around, you all should know that by now!

Have a great day!

[toad857]

[Josephine]

best post in the thread!

[RRO]

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "

Ive been involved in the "management" side and participation side of more activities and groups than I can even remember ranging from bull riding, to climbing, to little league sports to academic and band and many many more.... Without a doubt as a group, climbers are the biggest whiny ass douchnuts I have ever seen or dealt with. Even beyond 5 year old basketball leagues, and some of them are still pissing their pants. If you are wondering If I am talking to you, I am.

Im going to go out on a limb here and take a wild guess that the vast majority of the naysayers, aka fucktard whiney asses, were not at trail day, probably not been to many and overall just use the resources others spoon feed you. Congrats, you should pat yourself on the back, though stabbing yourself in the eye with a spoon would make the rest of us happier.(thought matt, you know ive always dug you).

Regardless of how you or I feel about the MFRP purchase, as a group they thought it was the best thing. Stand behind it, offer help or just go somewhere else, or again, spoon-eye.....

Ive not saw the trail but Im gonna take another wild guess that the many many inches of rain directly after trail day and that weekend were the causes of the immediate trail issues that's been brought up with such great tact. Im guessing after the rain a small crew needs to go out, tamp down, check drainage and it will shed water like a champ and last for many many years.

Ive not saw the purgatory trail either but was there during layout. I know for a fact that instead of going up the water fall line that has lost about 6 inches or more of dirt in a couple years, exposing every root around, killing vegetation down hill and so on.... That the new trail once its dialed in will be 100000000% better and will not require maintenance. Again, Ive not saw it since its been cut, but this time next year Im gonna bet its golden and the old trail will start repairing itself.

While Im not a pro, I would bet money I have spent more time fixing your mistakes on trails and bases, creating/marking new trails, and overall trail maintenance than anyone else in the community. As long as you use the 50% side slope, 3-5% outslope rule and full bench construction the trails will be better in the long run and much better than trails in the past. If you do not know those or the many more subtle "rules"/ ways to create or fuck up a trail, stop talking about it liek you know and come out and learn. I love to chat proper trail layout and construction over brews, lets chat.

And Dustin, top soil does not make a long term trail, that's just wrong. I'd recommend everyone read imba, forest service, professional trail builders materials and the much information out there on it, use the 50% side rule, out slope rules and full bench is the best long term, low maintance trails there are. If they are not holding up they were either cut or laid out wrong. But traffic on trails just cut in anyway, followed by torrential rains, will be slick until they are packed and sloped to she'd....but you do plenty for the area, so I can't bitch much at you.

As Ive said recently, its attitudes such as this that make me smile, knowing I made the right decision to step down from helping the majority of you. Ill be at the cool kid crags and trails, if youve not gotten your invite, you probably wont.

But if you do think you have better answers to the questions, then get involved more than sitting at a job you hate on the internet spouting off on how others are fucking it up. Its not becoming at all.....

The only reason I wrote, was I know this is hitting a nerve with a few people that have worked their asses off to secure land, plan land and actually are putting actions to words, you should try it or maybe actually say thanks with your enormous helping of asshattery....

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Im going to go out on a limb here and take a wild guess that the vast majority of the naysayers, aka fucktard whiney asses, were not at trail day, probably not been to many and overall just use the resources others spoon feed you. Congrats, you should pat yourself on the back, though stabbing yourself in the eye with a spoon would make the rest of us happier.(thought matt, you know ive always dug you).

Regardless of how you or I feel about the MFRP purchase, as a group they thought it was the best thing. Stand behind it, offer help or just go somewhere else, or again, spoon-eye.....The only reason I wrote, was I know this is hitting a nerve with a few people that have worked their asses off to secure land, plan land and actually are putting actions to words, you should try it or maybe actually say thanks with your enormous helping of asshattery....

Matt, I think it's more than commendable that you and others have donated as much time as you have. You infer that because someone disagrees with the way something is managed that they do not appreciate the work that went into attaining it. I feel like I can make a point about how this community views and treats it's property without insulting those that have worked very hard and with good intentions. I also feel like the only folks I have been hateful towards are those folks who enjoy being shitty in the forums, and in no way did I resort to name calling. You don't know me or my history with the area at all, I prefer to post anonymously but for all you know I could be a friend of a friend, a neighbor, or someone you've already had brews with. Calling me a fucktard whiny ass doesn't elevate the level of discourse, but PM me and we'll get beers. I have nothing but love for all of the folks who put a lot of time and effort into raising money and donating their energy, that doesn't mean that I have to agree with all of their decision making.

I donate nearly every year and it has been several since I set foot in the PMRP. I don't suck up resources someone spoon feeds me but after walking the place, I felt like it was important for people to think of the area with an eye for preservation instead of "development". If you are offended by that, then I am sorry that you have hurt feelings but it does not change me being butthurt about the impact. I'm probably not going to the MFRP anytime soon because I have my own little un-cool places to be; I'll retire to my little rural Kentucky hole (and stop cluttering your forums) hoping that at least a few people make a little less impact.

[dustonian]

And Dustin, top soil does not make a long term trail, that's just wrong. I'd recommend everyone read imba, forest service, professional trail builders materials and the much information out there on it, use the 50% side rule, out slope rules and full bench is the best long term, low maintance trails there are. If they are not holding up they were either cut or laid out wrong. But traffic on trails just cut in anyway, followed by torrential rains, will be slick until they are packed and sloped to she'd....but you do plenty for the area, so I can't bitch much at you.

"Topsoil" is a minor point compared to the huge impact that cutting away trees and root systems has, but I have noticed in walking trail in the Red (as I tend to do around 200 days a year) that the trails that formed via compaction (versus extensive digging and shaping) are far more walkable in rain and generally in far better condition than those that are cut aggressively into the hillside following the angle/benching "rules." The latter category cuts quickly into the clay layer, leaving little topsoil/leaves/detritus/humus behind to be compacted on top of that death-clay slip-&-side layer. Again, minor point as all can be overcome with laborious stone step-work, but worth noting field observations nonetheless--this is far more valuable in my opinion than any government-issued or mountain bike handbook out there. The trails I'm talking are for hiking only anyway, I don't touch the mountain biking trail stuff as that is another wheelhouse. And what I've noticed in walking countless trails in the Red in all possible conditions is that wherever the protocol has been to cut roots, remove trees, and aggressively dig into the hillside, nasty clay and mud pits and chutes have been forming during rainy-season days. But to me it's a minor point to me really, as it doesn't rain all the time and I can still claw my way up the hillside with a big pack on.

Anyway, just my observations and opinion, certainly nothing personal about it, anyone can take it or leave it as the please (& I'm sure it's already been left). As always, I fully appreciate all the hard work Tackett, Driskell, all the past & present RRGCC board members and volunteers do!

[RRO]

Open, respectful communication is the key to what we have here in the red and how we got where we are. I don't agree with everything even I do or say, much less others "running the show".... But in communication of that nature respect should be given. I stopped giving it on here awhile ago, cause generally none is given by the same vocal naysayers. Maybe I should not have grouped together everyone, just most.

I feel you on the overuse, those that know me know I feel guilt for my hands in the explosion. i can admit i wasnt a huge fan of a new purchase whilr still battling whats already on hand. But it's here , and uneducated rants and constant interweb bullshit does nothing good. If folks feel strong enough, get involved. It's easy to do.

Have fun Dustin, it sounds like you got it all figured out. Id talk shop but you're not gonna listen.

I'm back out of this snd most the self inflicted drama train that is the interweb. Running with my child, making sawdust and going to secluded ridge lines is much more appealing and stressful...may actually delete account finally.

I do not need nor want thanks or agrement in the past or present. It was known my involvement for tge masses completely ended at this last trail day. I have a few loose ends to patch/finish but then it's up to others to pick up the torch. All I'm saying is respect is a mighty fine way to communicate when real issues are at the table and if all you can bring to dinner is a poor attitude, then stay home...

Peace out, hope y'all continue to try hard, make mistakes , learn from them and push the envelope.

[SCIN]

Did we do something wrong?