Miller Fork

[clif]

stop ranting about it on this online forum, and actually do something about it that'll be constructive.

why does online ranting get such a bad rap? it is doing something, and if people are reading it and thinking about it, isn't it constructive?


i'm grateful there's rock out there so all this energy can be directed to something somewhat non-violent.

thanks for the answer dustonian. i'd be surprised if all that stuff doesn't wash off in the next rain, being clear cut. -- seems like a perfect place for parking too.

[Mark W]

I went to the PMRP last weekend and all I saw were massive amounts of erosion, soil compaction along cliff lines, a cliff line ecosystem destroyed, a network of trails that are washing into the streams below, the clear cutting of 6'-8' wide trails that are immediate erosion concerns, a general ignorance of and lack of respect for nature, and tank-tops. I will not be donating any more money to this cause. Perhaps instead of focusing on "developing" (why the fuck is this term being used anyways? This isn't a subdivision or a strip center.) the MFRP, maybe the climbers coalition should focus on maintaining some area in a way that is less destructive. Trail day seminars on how to interact with your surroundings in non-intrusive ways instead of how to build a 6' wide highway to your nearest trampled crag might be more beneficial.

I'm not an expert on soil compaction and cliff line ecosystem destruction (although I do think I'm very conscious of these issues), but it sounds like you are. I think you've just volunteered yourself to give some seminars or lectures on how to minimize massive amounts of erosion for the RRGCC. Let me know when and where they are, I'll come hear what you have to say. I'll even help promote it to get the attendance really high to stroke your ego.

But seriously, all joking aside. If you are an expert on these issues. Then step up. The RRGCC needs people like this to help teach people about these issues and about how to avoid or minimize these issues. So if you are passionate of this stuff, and if you really know what you are talking about, then stop ranting about it on this online forum, and actually do something about it that'll be constructive.

Thanks for your help.

Do you ("you" as in both you as well as anyone who has donated to the RRGCC) think it would be worthwhile for the RRGCC to budget some of the money they raise for land acquisition to hire competent, experienced trail builders and/or recreation managers to survey and lay out trails to the crags, determine the best parking areas and put in minimal infrastructure to mitigate impacts at the base of cliffs on newly acquired and "undeveloped" lands? Or at the very least to advise the RRGCC BOD on such matters?

I'm all for as much of a DIY approach as possible, but the issues about the PMRP raised in the initial post I quoted shouldn't be ignored and I don't think they should be allowed to be repeated. Using 10% or so of the acquisitions budget to have trails and infrastructure laid out properly in the beginning would make a huge difference in the long term.

[chandler]

I went to the PMRP last weekend and all I saw were massive amounts of erosion, soil compaction along cliff lines, a cliff line ecosystem destroyed, a network of trails that are washing into the streams below, the clear cutting of 6'-8' wide trails that are immediate erosion concerns, a general ignorance of and lack of respect for nature, and tank-tops.

Many PMRP trails are decades old logging or oil company roads. Many of the footpaths evolved organically as climbers began exploring the area in the 1990s, taking the most direct route from the existing roads to the walls. There was no sustainable plan from the RRGCC because the RRGCC did not own the property at that time. When RRGCC purchased the property in 2004, most of these trails already were in place.

Since the RRGCC does not own the PMRP mineral rights, it has no legal authority to remove roads actively used by the oil company. The Coalition is very interested in sustainable management of PMRP. Implementing a sustainable trail system takes manpower and time. If anyone would like to donate their expertise and/or assist with grant writing in this area, please PM me.

Miller Fork is more of a blank slate. We have a chance to do it right, but doing it right takes time, and this is part of the reason why the Coalition has not yet put out the “Open for Climbing” sign. As the June 3, 2013 press release stated, “More information, including information regarding trail and route development, will be forthcoming as the RRGCC develops and implements its infrastructure plan.”

[dustonian]

thanks for the answer dustonian. i'd be surprised if all that stuff doesn't wash off in the next rain, being clear cut. -- seems like a perfect place for parking too.

Indeed, but it is privately owned and posted so there is no parking up there. These are landowners that we should definitely not irritate. Getting down to the base of the cliffs from up there is heinous anyway.

[local]

Lol...first the secret handshake is a cupping of another mans ass will looking him in the eyes while saying I have a huge ego. Climbing in hell creek has been going on way before the rrgcc bought it and there was no drama. Good to see the drama queens have givin there insite. Stop talking shit and go investigate just like most of the people did to bolt down there. I feel like most people that bolt do it because they can't climb any harder so they go out and bolt new shit they can climb. Bolting is fucking hard work and cost a lot of money. If you doubt that please go bolt a route. I'm pretty sure if your climbing to be cool you already fucked your self. Unless your FAing 5.14 I'm pretty sure no one really cares so I doubt kipp or me bolts for the ego trip. I'm sure anyone can go into hell creek, I don't think anyone's checking IDs. You have a better chance of getting a gun pulled on you when you stray off rrgcc land and start trespassing.

[Andrew]

Miller Fork is more of a blank slate. We have a chance to do it right, but doing it right takes time, and this is part of the reason why the Coalition has not yet put out the “Open for Climbing” sign. As the June 3, 2013 press release stated, “More information, including information regarding trail and route development, will be forthcoming as the RRGCC develops and implements its infrastructure plan.”

It really isn't a blank slate. There are as many roads down there as in the PMRP and some of the development is very old therefore trails have already been established. Also, developers have more than likely already made basic trails, some good some bad.




Clif, its clear cut on top so that the owners can build houses. Some of the houses up their are mega nice. It is definitely private land so parking area and you really don't want to go messing around without permission.

I am still kind of shocked at some of the attitudes on here. It doesn't take much effort to get the information needed to start developing, and you can't climb there until there are climbs there. If anyone wants to come out and help, I should be around most weekends. The more help the faster walls are ready to go.

[Howie Feltersnatch]

My what a high horse you have, be careful not to fall. I've been to Cashiers Valley, does that make me too cool for the Red too?

You're right. What I was implying was that anyone who has climbed in Cashiers is too cool for the red. That's why I took so long to type that and give voice to my thoughts, because I'm too cool to care. Good work at making a straw-man response.

Yeah, dustonian posts are full of all sorts of douchebaggery. But he's earned his right to be an douche by developing

There is no excuse for acting like a douche.

Do you ("you" as in both you as well as anyone who has donated to the RRGCC) think it would be worthwhile for the RRGCC to budget some of the money they raise for land acquisition to hire competent, experienced trail builders and/or recreation managers to survey and lay out trails to the crags, determine the best parking areas and put in minimal infrastructure to mitigate impacts at the base of cliffs on newly acquired and "undeveloped" lands? Or at the very least to advise the RRGCC BOD on such matters?

I don't know that there is an acceptable way to cut trails into some of these crags that will not erode. But I don't think the solutions lie in making bigger more intrusive trails where everyone is capable of walking to the crag in their flip-flops. There were several 4"+ trees and rhodos that were cut out to make new trails this past weekend. The root structure (which is the only thing holding any soil on those hills) was ripped out and pushed over the side so that the sand/clay underneath is immediately exposed to fast moving runoff. This is in no way sustainable on those hillsides, attempting to build trails like someone learned in a mountain biking seminar isn't going to work on the steepest parts of these hillsides. I would propose that you don't need to "construct" a trail there so much as you just need to trim some branches and let people walk it into a trail. Once that wears the root structure and detritus to a point where erosion becomes a concern, that area can be rested and a new, low-impact, path can be implemented. The plateau has the ability to repair itself very quickly but only if it isn't pushed too far.

Miller Fork is more of a blank slate. We have a chance to do it right, but doing it right takes time, and this is part of the reason why the Coalition has not yet put out the “Open for Climbing” sign. As the June 3, 2013 press release stated, “More information, including information regarding trail and route development, will be forthcoming as the RRGCC develops and implements its infrastructure plan.”

Maybe the miller fork doesn't need to look like the PRMP and Muir. If you build as much parking as possible, as close as possible, then build boulevards to the base of the crag, publish detailed maps and pictures of each route with bolt numbers and beta, then the area will be overrun by the masses. Leave it the way it is and let it be climbed in the same way it is now, word of mouth and a little sweat equity, and the only people who are going to go back there are going to be the people who really want it, not the birthday party that's at Bruise Brothers right now.

[dustonian]

Even though we're both douches who have climbed in Cashiers Valley, I do sort of agree that it would be cool to leave Hell Creek wild and unpublished. It is a refreshing change from other some of the other spots in the region. I also totally agree that cutting out trees and roots until you get down to the clay layer is a disastrous practice for pretty much any trail and this needs to stop immediately. So many f'd up clay bottom slip'nslides from recent "trail day" efforts. Please leave the trees and topsoil, whoever decided gouging into the hillside was a good idea was dead wrong!!

[tradotto]

[TradMike]

Hey, I have my first trip to Cashiers planned for this fall. Should I hit Whitesides or Laurel Knob? Original Route or Groover?

I also like the somewhat natural trails. It doesn't need to look like more than a deer trail. Just defined enough so everyone takes the same path. Steps up scree fields are nice but I could do without those as well. Like those nice steps up into Gallatin Canyon right AncientSage.