Rebolting Effort Details - Yank the Mank!

[Howie Feltersnatch]

I'm not arguing that stainless isn't better. But why should all of the expense come out of my pocket. If someone wants to climb my routes and they want me to put in stainless, they should foot part of the bill. Subsidize the bolting and you get a say in it. Take up donations after the fact and you get to rebolt it.

Who wants to start a fund for bolters to get subsidized stainless bolts to use?

[dustonian]

Working on it Howie... later this year.

"get to rebolt it"... haha, that's a good one!

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Working on it Howie... later this year.

"get to rebolt it"... haha, that's a good one!

I think so. I bolt most of the sport routes that I climb... I don't have any sympathy for someone who has to do the same.

Edit: Let me rephrase; I enjoy bolting a route and sending it on occasion. The process has a certain sense of intimacy to it. So does rebolting. You may want that sentence to read as "have to rebolt it"; but lets be honest Dustin, you enjoy the bolting and rebolting or you wouldn't be doing it. You do in fact "get to rebolt it" and in some way experience a little bit of the same thing that the fa did.

[dustonian]

?

[Howie Feltersnatch]

I edited my last post. Your move...

[dustonian]

Rebolting sucks, I only do it on routes that are perceived to be in immediate need. There is little pleasure or "intimacy" or whatever bizarre way you put it, aside from the very mild satisfaction of a job well done the 2nd, 3rd , or sometimes 4th time around, finally. There is plenty of stunning unclimbed rock around that I have zero need to "share" anything with the FA on previously bolted routes. It's just something that inevitably has to be done with the shit hardware most people have been using, so those with the skills to do so should step up and do it every few years or so as time, motivation, and funding allow (ie., as Terry, Wes, Dave Scott, Hugh, Blake, Jeff Neal, Patrick Miller, JJ, Brad Combs, Mike and Andrew Wheatley, Yasmeen, and many others have over the years). I have another year or so of adequate free time and then someone else will have to step up.

Establishing new routes is a selfish narcissistic pleasure by contrast, but even after several hundred new pitches it's still for sure one of the most enjoyable and satisfying things out there. Rebolting is more difficult overall and more technical... it's nice to mix it up and do community service for a bit. But to call it fun or "pleasurable" displays your naivete and inexperience with actually doing the chore. Or, if you've done it and enjoy the work, come on out sometime and rebolt some routes, there are plenty of routes in need and plenty of hardware, just not enough people to do the work!

[Howie Feltersnatch]

I don't think we need to venture into the land of personal jabs. I am far from naive. I have rebolted routes, some of them my own, and it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Just the other weekend I rebolted a Glenn Ritter route that I wanted to climb in some far away lost area. I did it because I wanted to climb it and plated steel caught me just fine. In another 20 years if some wayward climber wants to climb it then they can follow the same process; if they choose to use stainless (which climbtech may make a viable option) then good for them. But who are you to tell me what to use if you aren't willing to pitch in on the cost of my hobby?

You can toss out all of the names you want, when it comes down to it they rebolted routes because they liked climbing them (or wanted to climb them for the first time) and wanted them to have hardware that was of a decent quality. Mr Neal hand drilled a ton of bolts which is no small feat, but he did so because he wanted that crag to have all new hardware. Everyone who bolts and rebolts routes takes something away from it that is rewarding for them or they wouldn't do it; this rock climbing stuff is a hobby not some activity necessary for survival where we have to do something we don't enjoy. You evidently do not enjoy the process of rebolting so I can only imagine that what you take away from it is the personal enjoyment of doing good for what you perceive to be your community; well that or the recognition of being the fellow that does good for his community.

My argument isn't that stainless isn't better in the long run. It's that you have no right to ask anything of me in this little hobby we have unless you want to chip in on what I am doing.

[dustonian]

I don't agree with your arguments on personal motivation, which are mostly philosophical and subjective in nature. Sometimes tasks for the good of everyone using a public resource just need to get done and sometimes people step up and do them. It's nice being outside doing something in the winter, so I guess on a personal level that's fulfilling enough, but with none of the excitement and pleasure of new routes. I rarely end up actually climbing the routes I rebolt, as 90% of the time I have already climbed them in the past.

My argument isn't that stainless isn't better in the long run. It's that you have no right to ask anything of me in this little hobby we have unless you want to chip in on what I am doing.

Agree on this, which is why there will be a concerted push in the near future for community support of developers to promote the use of stainless bolts and hangers. I know well enough that most developers engage in at as a primarily self-indulgent hobby (although to a man we all enjoy seeing other people climb our routes), so I do not have any unrealistic expectations for people to pony up extra money for the longer-term reliability of the bolts they place. I place plated bolts from time to time too, as the available supply of stainless glue-ins comes and goes.

[Howie Feltersnatch]

My argument isn't that stainless isn't better in the long run. It's that you have no right to ask anything of me in this little hobby we have unless you want to chip in on what I am doing.

Agree on this, which is why there will be a concerted push in the near future for community support of developers to promote the use of stainless bolts and hangers.

This brings us to the crux of why I jumped in here this morning (well besides the fact that I'm bored at work while its a bluebird day). Lets say that I take money from a coalition in order to subsidize the use of stainless hardware and some coalition member decides I did a shitty job on a given route, says a line I bolted never should have been ( a la r kelly), or wants me to bolt a line that I have no interest in. Do I tell them to fuck themselves; this is my hobby and I will do what I please with my free time? Or do they in fact have a right to some say in how I approach my little game?

[dustonian]

Whoever said anything about a coalition? We're just talking about a low price on stainless steel bolts, one which will compete with the comparatively short life-span non-stainless options out there.