ynp1 wrote:
About the ground up thing... I assume that FA means first ascent. And FFA means first free ascent, right? If you start up a virgin crack and you fall and then you hang dog and aid your way to the top... Did you get the FA? Yes. You can name it and grade it 5.9 C1 (or what ever it was). Then when it goes free, the grade should be changed and if the free climber wants to can change the name, cool.
Absolutely, I don't know why some in the RRG find this so hard to understand. Sounds really simple to me, but maybe that's only because that's the way it's been since the beginning of time.
As for Tommy's "funny stuff", I assumed it was evident to all that for those who are pushing the limits by freeing the classic big walls, that it was "anything goes" when it came to working out all the moves. When they go for the free ascent, however, I don't think they're dogging the route, just climbing it from bottom to top in good style. If that's not what's happening I stand corrected.
LK Day wrote:When they go for the free ascent, however, I don't think they're dogging the route, just climbing it from bottom to top in good style. If that's not what's happening I stand corrected.
I thought the same thing, Larry, but reading Steph Davis' book corrected my thinking. It sounded to me like as long as you redpoint each pitch (even if you fall and try a pitch again), it is considered freed. I think it took Steph plenty of tries to redpoint the crux pitch of Freerider.
"I snatched defeat from the jaws of victory." --Paul
---
(Emails > PMs)
LK Day wrote:When they go for the free ascent, however, I don't think they're dogging the route, just climbing it from bottom to top in good style. If that's not what's happening I stand corrected.
I thought the same thing, Larry, but reading Steph Davis' book corrected my thinking. It sounded to me like as long as you redpoint each pitch (even if you fall and try a pitch again), it is considered freed. I think it took Steph plenty of tries to redpoint the crux pitch of Freerider.
Yas,
That's the way it's always been in multi-pitch trad. It's not at all the same as "sending" a one pitch sport route. Of course the best style is always "first try, no falls". But let's say you're attempting an 11 pitch route and fall on pitch 8. As long as you try it again, and succeed you're free ascent has not been invalidated. Even here, style matters. The best style is to lower to the beginning of the pitch and start over. However, some mountaineering type considerations enter into the picture. On big climbs speed matters as you're often racing against darkness or weather and people don't always lower, as nobody wants to get benighted or struck by lightning. It is very common for a leader that's fallen to simply lower to a spot where they can rest without tension from the rope, then try again. If they succeed they feel like they've "freed" the pitch. Very few people ever had a problem with calling a pitch lead in this manner anything but a successful free lead. After all, the leader could have just broken the pitch into two, set up a belay, and then started the next pitch from there. What has NEVER been considered free climbing is to take, rest on tension, and then proceed. That's not free climbing, sport or trad, and never has been.
so let me throw out a scenario on the climb that started this entire thread....let's say I led it to ten foot from the chains and I fell (foot broke let's say)...I then lowered 5 feet to where I could get a jug and then continued on to the chains with no more falls. Am I correct that this is a FFA?
scenario two..I lead and fall at the same place. I lower and my buddy top ropes to that high point and then leads on to the chains. Also a FFA correct?
LK Day wrote:It is very common for a leader that's fallen to simply lower to a spot where they can rest without tension from the rope, then try again. If they succeed they feel like they've "freed" the pitch. Very few people ever had a problem with calling a pitch lead in this manner anything but a successful free lead. After all, the leader could have just broken the pitch into two, set up a belay, and then started the next pitch from there. What has NEVER been considered free climbing is to take, rest on tension, and then proceed. That's not free climbing, sport or trad, and never has been.
Or, more dubiously, you could do what Skinner and Piana did on the Salathe headwall, and break a long, relentless pitch into two shorter ones with a hanging belay, giving yourself an "unnatural" rest in the middle of the difficulties.
One qualification on my last statement. I'm talking American Rules here. Probably everyone has heard the expression "free french". In the Alps it wasn't considered aid climbing up until the point where you actually stood in etriers. I remember laughing as we watched French climbers in Eldorado Canyon pulling on slings, standing on pitons, doing anything to move up the rock as quickly as possible. They certainly considered what they were doing to be "free climbing" as nobody was actually standing in slings. Man, they were fast, something of profound importance to them considering their home turf. I used to climb with a guy named Robert Warren who did a lot in the Black Canyon of the Gunnison. A fine free climber, the man was a sight to behold when it came to aiding on a free rack. If you were on a wall with him and the weather went to shit he could absolutely swarm up the route, aid, free, all beautifully and seamlessly blended. The only thing that mattered was UP, NOW! We didn't consider that free climbing of course, but what an important skill to possess.
pigsteak wrote:so let me throw out a scenario on the climb that started this entire thread....let's say I led it to ten foot from the chains and I fell (foot broke let's say)...I then lowered 5 feet to where I could get a jug and then continued on to the chains with no more falls. Am I correct that this is a FFA?
scenario two..I lead and fall at the same place. I lower and my buddy top ropes to that high point and then leads on to the chains. Also a FFA correct?
Very poor style! But, yeah, in a lot of places that would be considered the FFA. I once did a route like that - Black Death. Me and Pearsall gang banged the hell out of it. When one of us fell we'd just lower, swap ends of the rope, then the next guy would lead. The big horizontal flake we were climbing was dirty to the extreme. I recall hanging from that thing and literally shoveling deep sand, bones and all manner of filth directly on us as we worked our way out to where one could turn the roof. Nasty! Tons of people saw the whole thing happen. Later the route turned up in the guide book as a free line. Could'a knocked me over with a feather.
