true story

[SCIN]

Climber 1 got the FA but climber 2 gets his name in the guidebook as the FA.

[pigsteak]

thats what i thought ...seems that sporties have no problem with fa's on pre placed gear...just curious why a gear climb might have seperate rules...

[rjackson]

thats what i thought ...seems that sporties have no problem with fa's on pre placed gear...just curious why a gear climb might have seperate rules...

I think you have it backwards... Why does sport have separate rules from trad? And why does the guy that sets the bolts (the real protection) not get the FA and then the first climber to redpoint gets the FFA if they "place" their gear (draws?) on lead? Unless they bolt on lead, ground up, in good style, and not fall...

Personally, I'm coming around to Larry's point of view...

[allah]

SCIN has never been a true sport climber!

[LK Day]

Piggie, If you're really interested, I did the FA and FFA of four top-rope problems in the gorge. That short little crack on Rough Trail, Fallout, Meteor Maker and The Prow. Everything else was established on lead, placing gear as we went, even the drilled anchors on Meteor Maker (one) and The Prow (two or three if I recall correctly). When the explanation of the style in which a route was established gets too complicated to explain then it's definitely too complicated for me to care.

Trad climbing is simple. It's done from the ground up, sometimes with aid and then later freed, oftentimes (and preferably) free from the beginning. Before sport climbing took off in this country I tended to look at routes that had been established with too much messing around as having been "frigged". Jim Erickson used the word "tainted". So who cares who was the first to frig a route? Not me.

[pigsteak]

thanks guys...this really wasnt about trying to stir the pot ( not totally anyway).

so in your case larry, those 4 top rope problems that you did the FA..am I to understand that your FA might have been with aid or at least a few hangs..and then you counted it as an FFA once it went clean even on top rope? russ and other traddies,would you still use this same mindset when opening new lines today...?

and I know where russ is coming from..seems to me that whomever places the bolts and then gets to the chains by any means did indeed do the fa if the two disciplines are to stay consistent....but I am betting our view on that is in the minority.

[rjackson]

Ground up FAs just aren't in my genetic make-up, I've come to this fabulous past-time through the gym and sport climbing and worked backwards to trad climbing and then FAs, so my view is skewed. I don't hold with all that "style" as having spent my career in design I know that style is fleeting. Personally I follow a code of an FA by any means and then the published/recorded FA is actually the FFA. (Pretty much how it is represented in guide books.) I have an old school (actually just old) body with a new school mentality.

NOTE I think you should resurrect a trad versus sport grading system as a sister thread, in my mind that's the topic that's even murkier...

[krampus]

Who gives a fuck?

exactly, seems way to circumstantial to have a perfectly delineated answer. If climber 1 and 2 are competing for the same piece of pie then they shouldn't have been FA'ing routs together, if that is all that matters. Its silly, but if your "lively hood" is dependent on FA's, and the climbers are friends, then regardless of who did what, give the FA to climber1 so he can maintain his sponsorship. Unless they secretly hate each other over said fame and glory, in which case, they should both stop climbing for a while and wait until it is fun again.

[KD]

Personally I follow a code of an FA by any means and then the published/recorded FA is actually the FFA. ...

That's what larry meant by FFA: Fisrt Frigged Ascent.

[camhead]

Climber 1 got the FA but climber 2 gets his name in the guidebook as the FA.

So, you better change this, then, right?

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... te&id=2131