Sigh... Mr Pigsteak, I have lost my super-power of being able to kill a thread with a single post. I am truly saddened that I couldn't stop this one in its tracks. Your powers are far greater than mine shall ever be.
And all this talk about safe climbing has me yearning for our conversations of knitting, top roping and perhaps fly-fishing...
I mean, seriously people?
Sporty sport lines allowed?
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
Pick myself up, stop lookin' back.
Grand Funk Railroad
Grand Funk Railroad
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
Rotary pee-er, couldn't find the FAIL so this will have to do.
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Rotarypwr345704
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:27 pm
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
Is this because I made a meme calling you out? I'll let you have it, I/you deserve it.Jeff wrote:Rotary pee-er, couldn't find the FAIL so this will have to do.
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd
My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.
My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
Ha, forgot all about that, no it's because I think you're a douche.
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Rotarypwr345704
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:27 pm
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
Fair enough.Jeff wrote:Ha, forgot all about that, no it's because I think you're a douche.
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd
My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.
My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
Sporty... sure.
Unsafe... no.
I've been on some sport routes where if you fell at the chains and the last bolt blew, you'd deck... In an instance like this I think the "spicy" factor is unnecessary. Put another bolt or 2 near the top to keep some redundancy in the system. If I climb a gear route, I can place pro to back up run-outs or mediocre placements (you can't always do this on sport routes). I have ripped gear out on trad lines, but I've been safe because I had gear not too far below that one. I understand that within the first 3 or 4 bolts of a sport route this isn't really possible... but higher, it's pretty easy to place enough gear (or have enough bolts) that if one of your "anchors" blows you'll still be safe.
Take Harvest for example... I think it's fine the way that it's currently bolted. I don't think the last bolt (that isn't there anymore) was necessary. As is, if you fall at the chains and the last bolt blows, you'll still be off the deck. If the last bolt (the one that's not currently there) gets replaced, I'm not going to bitch about it... but I'm also not bitching about the way it is currently bolted.
Take Dracula for another example... the way it was previously bolted, if you fell at the chains the fall was safe, but you were 15-20 feet off the deck... If the (previous) last bolt blew, you were screwed. I'm not bitching about the way it was previously bolted, I just never climbed on it in its previous state because I didn't want to take that risk. Now that it is redundant (because of the new bolt between the previous last bolt and the anchors), I can't wait to get on it.
I think part of this paranoia of mine is because there was one time I was on a sport route and my draw unclipped from the bolt. I was at about the 7th bolt, and I clipped it, and my belayer let out a sigh of relief... I looked down and the 6th bolt had unclipped. I would have been off the ground had I fallen at the 7th, but it would have been a really ugly fall. Since then I often think, "would I be safe if my previous bolt somehow failed?" If I think "no," then I don't let myself get into that situation. Now, I've clipped probably tens of thousands of bolts, and this has only ever happened to me once... but still... I don't want that 1 in whatever chance to lead to my death. I climb because it's fun, not because I have a death wish. I mitigate my risk as best I can when I climb... I only climb on routes that I think are safe and within my abilities... I only let people that I know belay me. I'm certain that my belayers are competent, etc...
On a side note... but related... I really dislike "easier" routes that are too spicy. 5.12/13/14 developers that put up 5.10 or 5.11 lines should keep in mind that it's not just your warm up... its a "hard" route for someone else. And if they try it and fall on that "easy" unnecessary 20 foot runout they could really hurt themselves. Not cool. It's not like the climbing in the runout section is too hard to stop somewhere and clip a bolt... so put one there! (And I can think of more than one route that fits this description...) Others have already said this in this thread... and I'm just echoing what they have said, but I agree. If you are bolting a 5.14 (or 5.13 or whatever) project for yourself... then bolt the 10a, or 11a, or 12a next to it in the same manner (or just save yourself the time/money/etc... and don't bolt it at all if you aren't going to do it in a manner that's safe for someone that's at their limit on that route)
Cheers!
Unsafe... no.
I've been on some sport routes where if you fell at the chains and the last bolt blew, you'd deck... In an instance like this I think the "spicy" factor is unnecessary. Put another bolt or 2 near the top to keep some redundancy in the system. If I climb a gear route, I can place pro to back up run-outs or mediocre placements (you can't always do this on sport routes). I have ripped gear out on trad lines, but I've been safe because I had gear not too far below that one. I understand that within the first 3 or 4 bolts of a sport route this isn't really possible... but higher, it's pretty easy to place enough gear (or have enough bolts) that if one of your "anchors" blows you'll still be safe.
Take Harvest for example... I think it's fine the way that it's currently bolted. I don't think the last bolt (that isn't there anymore) was necessary. As is, if you fall at the chains and the last bolt blows, you'll still be off the deck. If the last bolt (the one that's not currently there) gets replaced, I'm not going to bitch about it... but I'm also not bitching about the way it is currently bolted.
Take Dracula for another example... the way it was previously bolted, if you fell at the chains the fall was safe, but you were 15-20 feet off the deck... If the (previous) last bolt blew, you were screwed. I'm not bitching about the way it was previously bolted, I just never climbed on it in its previous state because I didn't want to take that risk. Now that it is redundant (because of the new bolt between the previous last bolt and the anchors), I can't wait to get on it.
I think part of this paranoia of mine is because there was one time I was on a sport route and my draw unclipped from the bolt. I was at about the 7th bolt, and I clipped it, and my belayer let out a sigh of relief... I looked down and the 6th bolt had unclipped. I would have been off the ground had I fallen at the 7th, but it would have been a really ugly fall. Since then I often think, "would I be safe if my previous bolt somehow failed?" If I think "no," then I don't let myself get into that situation. Now, I've clipped probably tens of thousands of bolts, and this has only ever happened to me once... but still... I don't want that 1 in whatever chance to lead to my death. I climb because it's fun, not because I have a death wish. I mitigate my risk as best I can when I climb... I only climb on routes that I think are safe and within my abilities... I only let people that I know belay me. I'm certain that my belayers are competent, etc...
On a side note... but related... I really dislike "easier" routes that are too spicy. 5.12/13/14 developers that put up 5.10 or 5.11 lines should keep in mind that it's not just your warm up... its a "hard" route for someone else. And if they try it and fall on that "easy" unnecessary 20 foot runout they could really hurt themselves. Not cool. It's not like the climbing in the runout section is too hard to stop somewhere and clip a bolt... so put one there! (And I can think of more than one route that fits this description...) Others have already said this in this thread... and I'm just echoing what they have said, but I agree. If you are bolting a 5.14 (or 5.13 or whatever) project for yourself... then bolt the 10a, or 11a, or 12a next to it in the same manner (or just save yourself the time/money/etc... and don't bolt it at all if you aren't going to do it in a manner that's safe for someone that's at their limit on that route)
Cheers!
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
Not to burst your safety bubble, but if you look carefully at many routes you're essentially on one bolt/one biner in many sections... i.e. climbing up to the second, and often other sections as well, typically also including 2nd to 3rd, and depending on the route, sometimes 3rd to 4th and so on... especially while clipping and especially given the way many folks belay in the Red. So much for redundancy eh!
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
That's why I wrote this part...
Decking from the top of a route is a hell of a lot different than decking from the 2nd or 3rd... I understand that this can still be life threatening... but that's something that goes into my "risk calculation" every time before I tie in...
No worries, you didn't burst my bubble... I still feel I make a good point.
My point was more about decking from higher on a route...THB wrote: I understand that within the first 3 or 4 bolts of a sport route this isn't really possible... but higher, it's pretty easy to place enough gear (or have enough bolts) that if one of your "anchors" blows you'll still be safe.
Decking from the top of a route is a hell of a lot different than decking from the 2nd or 3rd... I understand that this can still be life threatening... but that's something that goes into my "risk calculation" every time before I tie in...
No worries, you didn't burst my bubble... I still feel I make a good point.
Re: Sporty sport lines allowed?
Disclaimer: I wasn't trying to "dig" on Kenny for the way he originally bolted Dracula... just calling it as I see it. I appreciate all of the time, effort, money, etc... that all of the developers have put into the rrg. Kenny, Dustin, Kipp, Dave, the Webers, the Ellingtons, everyone! I know there are a lot of other people that fit into this category as well. I can't think of any other route of Kenny's that is like Dracula... I think hellraiser, and paradise, etc... are all safely bolted routes... Dracula just happened to be the only route I could think of when I was writing my previous post.
On a side note... but related... those of you that have tons of spare time on your hands, **cough, cough** biff nizzle. Since you have time to make spiffy new avatars for other users (even if this wasn't your original intent), you should have the time to watch this short video about probability of independent events. If 1 bolt fails, then you shouldn't assume that all other bolts on that route are independent of that one that failed. Maybe the rock on that route is suspect (for all bolts), maybe the developer didn't use enough glue (on all bolts), or didn't drill the holes deep enough (on all bolts), or whatever... if they all share some flaw, then the probability of one bolt failing is not independent from the probability of another bolt failing... Anyways, this video can explain it better than I can... so check it out...
Go to this website:
http://www.learner.org/resources/series65.html
Scroll down to where it says "16. Random Variables" and click on the "VoD" button next to that and educate yourself a little bit about some probability! Woo!
On a side note... but related... those of you that have tons of spare time on your hands, **cough, cough** biff nizzle. Since you have time to make spiffy new avatars for other users (even if this wasn't your original intent), you should have the time to watch this short video about probability of independent events. If 1 bolt fails, then you shouldn't assume that all other bolts on that route are independent of that one that failed. Maybe the rock on that route is suspect (for all bolts), maybe the developer didn't use enough glue (on all bolts), or didn't drill the holes deep enough (on all bolts), or whatever... if they all share some flaw, then the probability of one bolt failing is not independent from the probability of another bolt failing... Anyways, this video can explain it better than I can... so check it out...
Go to this website:
http://www.learner.org/resources/series65.html
Scroll down to where it says "16. Random Variables" and click on the "VoD" button next to that and educate yourself a little bit about some probability! Woo!
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tbwilsonky
- Posts: 868
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:38 pm