OK?

[climb2core]

They are at Lagos Linda's. I can send you his lot number. Bet Rene would have their number

[climb2core]

Funny, sounds like the Developer police are out.

yes, you cover permas, we got this one;)

You really need a FB page

[anborn]

I hit yes when I wanted to hit no... Sorry. Most of the time yes is on top and no is on bottom and I just hit the wrong button. Carry on!

this.

[clif]

alrighty. read most of Ramsey's piece. i can suggest a few counter arguments but am not willing to go for the academic formulation. do we need to petition the Moderators to fix ynp1's vote first?

[ynp1]

I am such a fuck up!

But I have chipped many cracks! Every time I climb el cap I pound pitons into the cracks which does modify the crack. Then people like Tommy C. come around and free climb it. I climbed mescalito, and I am sure Tommy is thankful for my additions, but I guess I didn't do enough... Still unsent...

Aid climbing is the purest form of chipping!

Wow, I really needed to get that off my chest. Thanks for listening and I will finally be able to sleep tonight.

[Andrew]

as developers here know, removing the outside layer of the rock here at the red is a dangerous proposition. 9 times out of ten what you have is a very sandy layer that will never clean up.... but I have glued (sorry, reinforced) two holds in my life in order that two particular holds stay attached to the wall. that was a pretty grey area for me, so actually 'creating" handholds (for me) is not even close to grey.....then again, I have liberally "tapped" edges to sanitize sharp holds, so perhaps I am back in the grey area.....

What kind of manufacturing occurred for Kong?

[climb2core]

Kong? Not one I would have picked for manufactured. I would be surprised to find differently.

[pigsteak]

andrew, that is one of the two....and hence the blurry lines of "manufacturing" that the article speaks of. and a good lesson...the big flake at the crux had broken off on its own. what was left i felt was needed in order for the move to still go in my ability range. I chose to reinforce it with glue...that is the extent of the "manufacturing" if that qualifies. I would not make that same decision again.

what do you think..is gluing any different than physically creating holds to make something go? in my mind it is, but perhaps I am jaded. to outsiders it seems so black and white....anyone with much experience knows otherwise.

[Andrew]

Sorry kipp I was really just wanting to hear the story of Kong again, but you do raise a good point. If cleaning or gluing loose rock is considered manufacturing then every damn sport route at the red is manufactured.

What about when you knock off a loose hold and to your surprise a better hold is made? What about removing loose flakes out of the inside of a horizontal that produces a jug?

[tbwilsonky]

it's not an ethic. it's an aesthetic. nobody gives a shit so long as they can't see the extra 'work'.