Fixed Gear

[climb2core]

Well, you inadvertently had it right the first time. Those double negatives can be tricky.

[rjackson]

"Like this post if you believe that the only action that needs to be taken is personal responsibility for the gear you climb on."

I viewed this post personally, several times, and have "not" liked it. So you are assuming that because I did not "like" it, that I agree with you, when I fact I don't.

[der uber]

"Like this post if you believe that the only action that needs to be taken is personal responsibility for the gear you climb on."

I viewed this post personally, several times, and have "not" liked it. So you are assuming that because I did not "like" it, that I agree with you, when I fact I don't.

Well, you inadvertently had it right the first time. Those double negatives can be tricky.

No, it's right now. Basically what Russ is pointing out.

[kafish2]

Climb2Core,

Another way to look at your facebook page is like this... You set up a site that specifically is geared towards your own thinking, with inflamatory pictures and wordings that support your own ideas. You only have 200 or so likes. I have to assume if one post on your wall, argueing and idea that you do not support, got over a thousand views, your page and initiative in general have gotten much more action that that. What does that imply about your ideas? That they still are not supported by the majority? 1000's-200 likes= a whole hell of a lot of people that are either against your idea or at least indifferent to it. Your judgement based on likes is not exactly sound, eh?

[kafish2]

Ok, first off sorry in advance for the long post, and most of you can feel free to skip this, glaze over, or whatever else your norm may be for super wordy posts. So here goes my next attempt at contributing in a thoughtful and constructive way.

There are a few things that are agreed upon here... that there is mank (this is a fact, look at the photos), that we should all be responsible for the situations we place ourselves in, and that education is needed (not sure that this last point is 100% agreed on by everyone in this thread but my guess is that noone be upset if an attempt at education were attempted). So, a good starting point would be to bring these issues together for a collective framework for education since they are universally agreed upon. Maybe some posters, or something along those lines, of a sharp biner and frayed rope saying, "check yourself before you wreck yourself." If not maybe something else similarly catchy and appropriate.

So where does all the controversy lay? With the status of perma/project gear. The easiest solution would be to leave things as they are and focus on education. The next easiest would be a simple "no gear left up, period." Why are these the easiest? The are easy to communicate, understand, and enforce. They also do not place any assumptions on the quality of the gear that is left behind.

Ian, my issueas with your attempts at change are not that they take down precious gear, it is that the basis of taking it down is not based on the true safety of the gear. Your premise of a tag system only ensures 1 thing, that the draws are not on a route longer than 30 days. However, in implementing a system based on this idea, you are (whether intentionally or not) setting out an idea that draws cannot go bad in less than 30 days and are thus safe. It also implies that there is a system that ensures safety, and a community that enforces that safety as a collective. I think this will lead to even more of a blind trust in gear. A situation where a climber sees a tag and thinks, "Good gear." Now I know this mindset is not your intention, but I think it will be the result for many climbers. Your basis for taking down gear has nothing to do with quality of the gear in question. It is assumed good gear goes up and should be good for 30 days (which is often not the case).

We all need to be responsible for ourselves, whether that means always checking gear that is hanging or always hanging our own gear, everytime, I do not care. I fear this tag system removes the focus from ourselves and creates a false sense of security.

[climb2core]

200 people like
25 people don't like

Many more may be ambivalent because it is not there issue to get into.

You guys do what ever math you want. Please, invite anyone and everyone to like the dislike statement an support your cause.

[der uber]

[clif]

i'd like to share my personal gratitude to everyone who has expressed as much frustration with this campaign as me. thank you.

[climb2core]

Ian, my issueas with your attempts at change are not that they take down precious gear, it is that the basis of taking it down is not based on the true safety of the gear. Your premise of a tag system only ensures 1 thing, that the draws are not on a route longer than 30 days. However, in implementing a system based on this idea, you are (whether intentionally or not) setting out an idea that draws cannot go bad in less than 30 days and are thus safe. It also implies that there is a system that ensures safety, and a community that enforces that safety as a collective. I think this will lead to even more of a blind trust in gear. A situation where a climber sees a tag and thinks, "Good gear." Now I know this mindset is not your intention, but I think it will be the result for many climbers. Your basis for taking down gear has nothing to do with quality of the gear in question. It is assumed good gear goes up and should be good for 30 days (which is often not the case).

We all need to be responsible for ourselves, whether that means always checking gear that is hanging or always hanging our own gear, everytime, I do not care. I fear this tag system removes the focus from ourselves and creates a false sense of security.

Tagging was one idea to date gear to let you know if it was put last week or 6 months ago. The initiative hardly hinges on that minute aspect. I think the idea behind it is "dont abandon your gear". For the record Kyle, your point is well made that people may make false assumptions based upon a date. How about this as the baseline for the ethics:

-Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Do not assume it is safe.
-Do Not "donate" any aluminum gear to act as fixed gear for any route.
-Try to limit your project draws to about 30 days.
-Limit fully equipped steel gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep.


(The only difference from the original proposal, is the gear tagging has been removed)

[calvinivlac]

Ian, my issueas with your attempts at change are not that they take down precious gear, it is that the basis of taking it down is not based on the true safety of the gear. Your premise of a tag system only ensures 1 thing, that the draws are not on a route longer than 30 days. However, in implementing a system based on this idea, you are (whether intentionally or not) setting out an idea that draws cannot go bad in less than 30 days and are thus safe. It also implies that there is a system that ensures safety, and a community that enforces that safety as a collective. I think this will lead to even more of a blind trust in gear. A situation where a climber sees a tag and thinks, "Good gear." Now I know this mindset is not your intention, but I think it will be the result for many climbers. Your basis for taking down gear has nothing to do with quality of the gear in question. It is assumed good gear goes up and should be good for 30 days (which is often not the case).

We all need to be responsible for ourselves, whether that means always checking gear that is hanging or always hanging our own gear, everytime, I do not care. I fear this tag system removes the focus from ourselves and creates a false sense of security.

Tagging was one idea to date gear to let you know if it was put last week or 6 months ago. The initiative hardly hinges on that minute aspect. I think the idea behind it is "dont abandon your gear". How about this as the baseline for the ethics:

-Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Do not assume it is safe.
-Do Not "donate" any aluminum gear to act as fixed gear for any route.
-Try to limit your project draws to about 30 days.
-Limit fully equipped steel gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep.


(The only difference from the original proposal, is the gear tagging has been removed)

Save your money and carpal tunnel, give to the Holy Boulders instead? Oh right, Team Suck too.
https://www.kintera.org/site/c.tmL5KhNW ... vGcLMJ0NIE

Piggie, now I know you would support that, you So Ill developer you.