Fixed Gear

[climb2core]

Tania, I get it and wish it was that simple. I am afraid that ship has sailed though. Some sort of fixed gear is here to stay. Now it is just a matter of figuring out how to make it as safe as possible.

[captain static]

I personally am in agreement with Tania on no fixed draws and support Team Suck on bolt/anchor maintenance. Being a NOLS graduate, I strongly support a Leave No Trace ethic. When there are fixed draws on a route it promotes more traffic and thus more impact to the base of the crag. When I go climbing outside I would prefer it not look like an outdoor climbing gym. I see the SS glue-ins as a step in the right direction, not only from a safety standpoint, but also in reducing visual impact. To me, leaving project draws and fixed draws is a step in the wrong direction.

[climb2core]

Bill and Tania, while your stance is admirable and would definitely fix the problem... Can you offer an actionable solution that the community would buy into and could be implemented? IMHO, project and fixed draws are here to stay for better or worse.

[pigsteak]

yes ian but you chuffers are too dense to see the answer. any draw left is abandoned. leave them up at your own peril. if i take down your proj draws to hang my own, i will use the loeffler initiative and hang them all on the anchors so no one steals them.

tania keep preaching it. focusing on the issue is missing the reality. self entitled , self absorbed climbers expecting the easiest way up a route so they can feel good and spray to their bros. outdoor climbing has turned into an amusement park experience and has nothing to do with the environment anymore.

hammocks, dogs, permadraws, music, stickclips, and blue jeans...come on fonzie, you can do this.

[climb2core]

Kipp, you must have spent too much time in J-Tree. You have turned into that hippie in the hammock. Just give peace a chance...

[the midas touch 123]

Seems to be two emerging philosophies:

1.) Be personally aware and responsible and let people organically figure out how to manage...

2.) Be personally aware and responsible and try to figure some ethics that we can agree upon that will help reduce...

The intent of this initiative was to find some common ground in the middle that would leave us all safer...

I think a common ground is very attainable and seems to have already been layed out in front of us:

-BE PERSONALLY AWARE AND RESPONSIBLE-

-I to am a NOLS graduate and am a big advocate of all Leave No Trace Policies.
That may be one of the reasons I find traditional climbing to be so appealing.
I do however understand the issues with steep routes, where fixed gear would be of benefit.
That being said, fixed gear is not always a neccesity, but most certainly a luxury.

-In my opinion (which holds little to no value) climbing is never a safe sport.
One can never climb safe. One can however climb smart.
And for me climbing smart means not only inspecting my rope,
but also inspecting all gear that comes in to contact with my rope...
Whether that gear be personal gear, someone's project draws, or a perma-draw...

When I clip gear it is my responsiblility to inspect and determine whether it is wise or not to use.

BE PERSONALLY AWARE AND RESPONSIBLE.
I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR ME, PERIOD.

[allah]

The red has turned turned into drama central. Take all the permanent draws down and then watch everyone start cleaning through all the new glue ins and wear them out just like they do in frankenjura. There's always gonna be something to bitch about. If someone clips a sharp biner and it cuts their rope it's their fault.

[lena_chita]

I have never had much difficulty in checking the draws I am clipping. I have often swapped out a bad draw with a draw from my rack. If I do not feel like donating a draw (ie a route I probably will not return to soon) then I take down the offending draw. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't expect anyone else's gear to be good, that is why i give them a look, and I also do not expect anyone else to keep me safe (except the guy I let hold the other end of the rope). It all seems pretty simple and also places ownership of my actions squarely on my own shoulders.

The problem I see with any solution is that not only does it involve a more complicated process (education, implementation, sustained maintenence) but is also places to some degree the safety of the climber in the community's hands. There is an assumption that if there are draws hung, and especially if there is a tag, that the draws are abiding by the community standard and thus safe. Essentially saying that someone, other than the climber, has checked out these draws lately and deemed then OK.

No matter how this shakes down I will continue to check draws as I climb, but don't expect me to take down any draw that does not look/feel dangerous despite the material with which it is made or how long it may have been on the wall.

If everyone is so fucking good at inspecting gear, then why the hell are there so many truly shitty biners out there?

Because there is no objective way to tell if the 'biner is going to cut your rope on this very fall, of it if is "just getting there" and " needs to be replaced soon".

Let's face it, every person who claims to always inspect every 'biner they clip, and to replace the bad ones, has gone through some variation of the following:"man, this draw is manky! But... I think it is still O.K. right now. Sort of worn, but not an immediate death trap. I'll clip it. I've clipped worse. I am not going to fall here, anyway. I don't have an extra draw on me, bummer. I'll just clip it, and then I'll come back tomorrow and replace it."

In fact, if the whole "remove worn draws and place them on the anchors" becomes common, I foresee some exchanges along the lines of:

person 1: hey, whoever left the draws on Cimb X, those were horrible, I hung them off the anchors

Person 2: Fuck man, what are you smoking? Those were almost brand fucking new. I just hung them yesterday, andf I only had time for one go this morning before my flight, and you freaking ruined it. Maybe you can afford to buy new set of draws every 2 weeks, but I climb on mine for years, and they never killed anyone yet"

Person 3, 4, 5... 1000... rehashing it for 10 pages.

[tania]

Y'all still don't get the point.

[climb2core]

Tania, you have been drinking Kipp's Koolaid for too long.