Fixed Gear

[climb2core]

Ha, you must have voted for Romney.

[clif]

what gumby routes anyway? i thought i lived among the gumbies and i can't think of any with fixed gear, unless your'e talking about the gumbies that warm up on Tuna Town, in which case i'll stfu.

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Ha, you must have voted for Romney.

I despise that man... and I'm not very fond of people who lack the depth of thought to be able to see the world for the big gray area that it is. Intelligent thought cannot exist when constrained to a set of party lines... or on its way south on I-75.

[Andrew]

Trust me, people are far more ignorant about it than you give them credit for. How many of those gumbies trying those cool routes with permadraws on it are bothering to feel the edge of the biner and visually inspect before they clip?

Education is needed.

Unless all the locals unite with the crew and strip all gear, every time, for an extended period of time (several seasons) permadraws of some sort will re-appear.

Why are you so worried about gumbies getting hurt? Seems to me like every time I pick up new gear or open a climbing book or go to a gym (something I am coming to abhor), there is something telling me that climbing is dangerous and I am climbing at my own risk. Are these gumbies also illiterate? If so, are we not better off if we let a few of them burn in a little hot? Doesn't this solve the overcrowding issues also? We weed out a few of the unthinking climbers bred in (insert name of gym from north of the Ohio) and we have a win-win. I say you leave the fixed ginsu biners in place and we can eventually open roadside back up.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67521

Not exactly a gumby from north of the Ohio, nor an illiterate who doesn't understand dangers. Your lack of understanding, compassion, and empathy is an embarrassment to all humans.

With that being said, I do think the local community should strip more climbs of their perma/discarded draws, but do so with some common sense. As a democratic group of people, we will have to come to an ever evolving compromise that best supports the reality of the situation.

[jordancolburn]

Trust me, people are far more ignorant about it than you give them credit for. How many of those gumbies trying those cool routes with permadraws on it are bothering to feel the edge of the biner and visually inspect before they clip?
Education is needed.
Unless all the locals unite with the crew and strip all gear, every time, for an extended period of time (several seasons) permadraws of some sort will re-appear.

That's kind of what I mean. The gumbys not checking and uneducated are the ones that will get hurt, but not the ones typically leaving the draws. The people leaving the draws are assuming everyone will pitch in, check every time and replace or remove which just plain doesn't happen.

And if it's agreed upon (never will be, but we can dream?) that all gear left on routes gets stripped without question, it would solve the problem. I mean, leaving gear on routes is just out of convenience, but there are plenty other convenient practices that just wouldn't fly because of how they're viewed. If someone tried to leave their pack, hammock, 3 dogs, and harness tied to a rope on a tarp at the bottom of the climb for the evening to make the approach easier the next day, they couldn't have any reasonable expectation that any of it would still even be there and would be viewed as an idiot.

I guess the line gets thinner when some gear is already fixed like bolts and chains and maybe a cleaning biner in the middle, so that's where the controversy and opportunity for this type of ethics trolling comes in.

[Howie Feltersnatch]

With that being said, I do think the local community should strip more climbs of their perma/discarded draws, but do so with some common sense. As a democratic group of people, we will have to come to an ever evolving compromise that best supports the reality of the situation.

^ This... but it was funnier the first way I said it.

Embarrassment to humanity? Only when my pants are down. Now don't you have some cracks to bolt?

[Andrew]

With that being said, I do think the local community should strip more climbs of their perma/discarded draws, but do so with some common sense. As a democratic group of people, we will have to come to an ever evolving compromise that best supports the reality of the situation.

^ This... but it was funnier the first way I said it.

Embarrassment to humanity? Only when my pants are down. Now don't you have some cracks to bolt?

Good point... I do need to find some cracks to bolt. Unfortunately I have never bolted a crack, everyone seems to bolt them before I can get to them.

Now don't you have some incorrectly labeled groups of people to suggest to that its OK for them to die?

[LABIALDROOP]

Howie Feltersnatch? Sounds like a trolling name. I know because my labia start to sag extra low when there is a troll in the vicinity.

[One-Fall]

If we don't put up steel perma's history has shown that aluminum mank will pop up. Bob Marley is a good example.

Most of the aluminum draws at Marley on the moderates (outside the cave) are mine. I'm pulling them down this weekend. If we as a community decide without exception to yank any aluminum, I'll gladly play by the rules.

Hmmm, so it looks like I'm part of the problem, and clearly education hasn't worked on me (but I do agree it's normally the best place to start). I do believe if I went to my project and my draws were gone, it would greatly decrease the likelihood I would leave them again.

[rjackson]

Project draws versus perma-draws... May as well reopen that thread while we're at it, since that's where this whole thing started(?).