Who's line is it?

[dustonian]

I had a nice chat with Mike (super nice guy and one of the heroes of the RRG rebolting crew), and he expressed regret for not noticing the potential trad route--admittedly it is not exactly a splitter line. I would surmise he might even be amenable to moving 3 or 4 bolts over left a bit further from the trad line, as there are a good number of nice looking holds over there. I would even thown down for the stainless glue-ins for the effort, as I am sick of seeing the plated non-stainless junk hardware proliferating all over our cliffs when there is a better option readily available. OK, mostly I am just sick of replacing ghetto hardware after it rusts out in less than 10 to 15 years. This would serve as a great example foe future developers.

[caribe]

There is also the fact that the most convenient exit strategy off Kelly involves the sport anchors.

[dustonian]

There is also the fact that the most convenient exit strategy off Kelly involves the sport anchors.

I don't understand why you guys just couldn't rap from a tree like normal traditionalists.

[megmay]

I forgot webbing. Otherwise there are lots of nice trees.

[Andrew]

I first excited to climb the crack now called R. Kelly Ethics because from a distance, it looked like a really cool line. Upon closer inspection we realized that a line of bolts crossed the majority of this very obvious line of weakness. Simple climbing ethics dictate that a bolted crack is a bad thing, but one cannot raise real ethical concerns about a route’s style until the crack in question is climbed. So that’s what we did, we climb the crack and had a ball. It’s a wonderful long line that offers a really well rounded traditional adventure, from a bouldery crux to wide wiggling. It offers just enough protection (PG 13) and the underlying rock is good. The chicken heads on the face will clear up with time to make for fun varied climbing.

In climbing the crack, I was not trying to get my name online and add another squeeze job to the Red; I was trying to cover my bases before making an ethical point. This argument is not about which one is the real line, it is about style. Arthur, I do appreciate your positivity, but do not think these routs can never coexist. Real enjoyment of the crack requires the climber to ignore the bolts littering their line of natural protection.

The sport line was climbed first; no one can take this away from first ascensionists now that their line of bolts dot the cliff line. Mike and Andrew: why did you bolt this crack?

Regardless of what I think about the style in which the line should have been established, the simple fact remains that Mike and Andrew climbed it first and in doing so, made a decision for how the rest of the community must climb it. They have set the bar very low, but it was their decision to make. I do not advocate the chopping of bolted cracks by anyone other than by a reflective first ascensionist. However, this does not mean that as a climbing community we must speak out against these abuses. If we set the bar so low as to condone the bolting of cracks, even when they’re covered in face holds (as is the case for this crack), then we open the door to all out abandonment of traditional ethics. I’ll say it until I’m blue in the face:

Placing a line of bolts on top of or even overlapping with a natural line that can be readily protected with gear is wrong.

Alright... I'll comment.

First and foremost, it would have been really cool of you to contact the FA party about your concern before expressing your disappointment online. If you would have done that, you would have realized that we are in agreement and a mistake had been made. Meg, I don't know you, but I do know Art and I thought we were friends enough to contact me first before placing judgement with a snarky route name.

When I first scoped this section of cliff I was well aware of the crack. My dad said he was going to bolt a line in that general area and I assumed he was going to keep the line away from the crack. Well, he didn't. I also was disappointed that a good portion of the route was a bolted crack. I talked to my dad and he was truly unaware of the issue, for whatever reason. I am sure that it won't happen again, but I am not sure I can say the same thing about the way you decided to handle the situation.

In the future when you have a problem with a decision that is made, can you please talk to the people about it first. You might be surprised that your complaint has already been addressed and future actions will be different.

[dustonian]

For my two cents, EBGB was a really fun moderate climb and destined for popularity... very reminiscent of Pogue Ethics. To be honest, the trad line will probably never become clean from traffic alone, because it is unlikely to ever get it (unfortunately this ain't Paradise Forks, Meg). That said, I will definitely do it at some point--the topout section looks super fun!--and it would be far preferable if the two routes were a bit more independent. Like I said, I am happy to throw some glue ins at the effort if there is time and interest in moving the middle part of the sport route a bit further left... in my opinion it doglegged a bit too far right anyway. Either way, I think Art is right in that it doesn't matter much since that part is so easy. I don't see it is an "ethical" debate per se, but merely a way of working out the protection to accommodate the two best possible routes... and there seems to be plenty of space for that to happen. I hope you guys don't get too grumpy with each other, because it really is a pretty minor point and I very much appreciate Mike's efforts and workmanship.

[dustonian]

BTW Arty you got the start of EBGB wrong on your little topo drawing... it is much further left (you can see the bolts in the photo).

[pigsteak]

can I puke now? way too much to cover here....from larry's diatribe on "leave no trace" ethics (riiiight, convenient bolt anchors for trad are OK at top...bolts along the way, bad..not to mention how many trees have been killed from slings over the years...so much for LNT..and all the colored tat of course)

you ladies are speaking situational ethics....I dare say over 40% of the bolts in the Red could be removed leaving some wonderful mixed lines....so many of these "sport" lines have very protectable pockets...where is the outrage, the amazement, the disillusionment, the loathing.....geesh.

it is sooo narrow a worldview to say "cracks bad, faces good" when it comes to bolting. and to be clear, I am speaking of single pitch cragging for all you el cap experts in the scrum....

could some holier than thou please explain to me once and for all how you justify bolting easily gear protectable face climbs, but blow a gasket if the talk of bolting a crack come up? distinction without a difference imo.

why don't I bolt cracks? because of some mixed up social norm that decades of superstition have somehow mandated a vertical fissure in sandstone is sacred from the drill...until you want to be lowered of course, and then we must put permanent stainless steel anchors....wtf...what am I missing in this decision tree?

[dustonian]

I wish you would quit howling at the moon about faces and cracks, it is merely a matter of statistical probability and ease of discussion... it just happens to be that the majority of safely protectable routes follow crack systems. That said, there are many exceptions I have put up dozens of trad and so-called "mixed" routes that were face climbs with good protection, and there are other examples of this style around the Red such as Pebbly Poo, Central Scrutinizer, Battle of the Bulge, etc... not to mention countless others at the New, Eldo, T-Wall, Linville Gorge, Looking Glass, ad nauseum. It is not an ethical debate, but rather a matter of what makes a good fun route versus what makes a lame or mediocre one.

[climb2core]

Consider reversing the scenario. Megan and Art see out up a cool new trad line. It climbs mostly on crack, but wanders across some face climbing. Then Mike and Andrew come across the cliff and see potential for a sport line that crosses a third of the same terrain and uses the crack for a bit. So they bolt it without approaching the FA crew. How would you feel Art and Megan? Betting you would be pissed as hell, and justifiably so.

Several thoughts:

Trad does not get a trump card on any rock that happens to have some crack in it.
EGBG is not a not a bolted crack, but largely a face climb.
Respect the the FA, Johnny come lately.