Decking at the Lode...

[bcombs]

Larry has earned the right to be set in whatever ways he wants. That being said, when I'm being belayed with an ATC and fall, a little pee comes out. Just a little.

[bgflounder]

Seems like a lot of people have been bagging on ATC-style devices in favor of the Gri-gri. I can understand the argument for a gri-gri in the case of the unintentionally distracted belayer (bee sting-induced anaphylaxis, boulder to the head (wear a helmet), or bear mauling, etc.). But I get more nervous about someone belaying improperly or a device deciding it's time to lock itself open than bcombs does while taking an ATC fall. and for the record: regardless of the type of device used, EVERY time I take a lead fall, at least a little pee comes out.

Just trying to throw in a perspective for the ATC here. It's still a great device (especially with the reverso/BD guide versions) and it wouldn't have stayed in production this long if it had major problems. I can't say the same for a lot of the new devices coming out.

[bcombs]

I certainly won't refuse an ATC belayer. I'd rather the belayer comfortable with what they are doing than any false sense of security from an autoblock device.

[climb2core]

There is so much talk about what device you should choose. When it comes down to it, it really is the belayer you should choose. Some people just seem to take their job more seriously than others. Of course freak things can happen, but I would take someone who truly "gets it" with a SUM any day over any over the alternative...

Now give me a competent belayer and a gri gri, and don't pee at all.

[ahab]

And it's pussyfied.

Wow, as clear an advance as nylon ropes, harnesses and cams! I guess it really is next to impossible to climb without them. But seriously, it's about convenience and the feeling that you're less likely to be dropped by a distracted belayer. I get it. The distracted belayer bit is a little sad though, isn't it.

No its not only about convience and distracted belayers, that is not what I said... Unless you count getting knocked unconcious by a rock a distraction?? Or my buddy who is allergic to bees going into anaphylactic shock also a distraction? I know pretty unlikely but it could happen. Really the main reason for me is the added safety, if used properly, and I just find them easier to belay with than an ATC. Again personal preference.

Either way seems as if you are set in your ways and dont want to listen to the reasons people like them so I wont waste my breath. I would think there must be some benifit seeing as how they are about 4 times as expensive as ATC's yet almost everyone has one... Must be because we are all lazy climbers

So, you're arguing for Day's pussyfied stance, or against it? Confused.

[Josephine]

You've been dying for that dinger, Day!!!!!!!

I would like to defend the hangdoggers though, especially Josephine. She is an awesome hangdog! Hangdoggers still climb more pitches in day than Traddies.

Side note: This might just be lazy too, but you can belay quite nicely off an anchor(multi-pitch) with a GriGri. I have a feeling you already know this shit but where playing coy to make fun of the clunky locky belay devices.

lol!

You're right - I do hang dog a bunch. and I would rather hang dog on sport than spend all day climbing 1 (maybe 2 pitches) of trad in the red. Now if I were climbing in the Gunks or somewhere that had more beautiful trad lines (and spaced more closely than 1, maybe 2, per crag on average) maybe I would be a die-hard ATC fan. But I chose the red because of it's awesome sport. One day I might actually send something

[EricDorsey]

And it's pussyfied.

Wow, as clear an advance as nylon ropes, harnesses and cams! I guess it really is next to impossible to climb without them. But seriously, it's about convenience and the feeling that you're less likely to be dropped by a distracted belayer. I get it. The distracted belayer bit is a little sad though, isn't it.

No its not only about convience and distracted belayers, that is not what I said... Unless you count getting knocked unconcious by a rock a distraction?? Or my buddy who is allergic to bees going into anaphylactic shock also a distraction? I know pretty unlikely but it could happen. Really the main reason for me is the added safety, if used properly, and I just find them easier to belay with than an ATC. Again personal preference.

Either way seems as if you are set in your ways and dont want to listen to the reasons people like them so I wont waste my breath. I would think there must be some benifit seeing as how they are about 4 times as expensive as ATC's yet almost everyone has one... Must be because we are all lazy climbers

So, you're arguing for Day's pussyfied stance, or against it? Confused.

Can I say both? Really I was just providing a smart ass response to his smart ass question he already knew the answer too

[LK Day]

[whatahutch]

I climbed for four years with an ATC. During those four years I came close, more than once, to dropping my buddies. I never did, but I do remember two occurrences where I was scary close to letting my partner deck. Once, I arrested the fall with my opposite hand and a bunch of something that some people might call luck, and I call Grace. Whatever it was, it was close and I had the burned palm that proved it. The second time I was lucky that the leader didn't actually peel. He lunged, barely caught the hold, foot slipped and was on the cusp of having a wild peeling whipper, and I reacted by pulling slack, and completely letting go of the rope (with either hand) to re-grip while he was barely hanging on. If he would have actually peeled he would have decked before I could get my hand back on the brake end. One of the other guys we were climbing with that day was scared shitless because he watched me screw-up. I was too, I knew I screwed up.
Those two scary moments made me a better belayer. I became very vigilant about my belaying. I still belayed with an ATC too. Finally, I bought a Gri-Gri though. I will trust an ATC belayer that is comfortable and vigilant with the device and the process it takes to belay. (Although I often ask any one else that may be there to back the person up just in case). I am always leery of the person that learned only on an auto-blocker. I know that it is only my opinion, but my opinion has been shaped by my observances; I have seen some really lazy belaying out of people that learned only on auto-blockers. I have asked people to put their hand on the rope while using the gri and I explain that the device could fail, probably won't, but could. I have never had a negative response to my prompting, but I try not to be a jerk about it.

I like the way the click-up looks. After reading all this debate (and drivel) about devices, etc., it seems to be the best for leading. No moving parts means less chance for a point of failure. If I buy it, I plan to keep in my pack the gri-gri for TR belays, the click-up for leading, and the ATC for cleaning and rapping down (of course with the prusik backup).

Of course, when all else is said and done, this is just my opinion and not the Truth in climbing. My way is not The Way. Neither is any individuals on this site. Safety, and not my opinion is what should be considered first. Safety contains many factors. The major factor in safety is not equipment, it is the human factor. When someone offers to belay me, I always ask are they more comfortable with the Gri or the ATC. I let them belay with whatever they are comfortable with because no way am I going to take them out of their comfort zone for the sake of me feeling more comfortable with the gear they choose. Just like in cleaning, I will not force someone to rappel if they are not comfortable with that process, no matter what the "perceived" ethos is for the crag I am at. I would feel like I a complete jerk, idiot, dummy (pretty damn close to a murderer) if I forced my opinion or "ethic" on the cleaner and took them out of their comfort zone and caused them to be injured or die because it was what I deemed right. I would hate if I forced someone to use the gri, when they are comfortable (and experienced) with the ATC, and then I take the last fall of my life all because I believed that equipment was the most important aspect of safety.

It sounds like the Sum can be a perfectly good device for a person that knows how to use it, and knows that it could fail at anytime, and so in preparation for that failing they always treat it like it isn't an auto-blocker. As far as someone using it to belay me, I would allow it if they understood the limits to their device. I learned to be vigilant after my couple of close calls on the ATC. I bet the best Sum belayer out there is now the dude that was on the brake end of the decking at the 'Lode event that started this debate. I can not speak for him because I do not know him, but I would bet if he ever uses a Sum again that he will know how to use it like it isn't an auto-blocker. I bet he will be ever vigilant to be prepared for the worse. I bet he would be the best Sum belayer you could find, and I might, just maybe, even tie-in to let him belay me with his scary device, because the human factor in safety would be at his best to make sure I wouldn't get dropped.

The point I am trying to make, if you haven't already gotten it is the best belay device in not a piece of equipment, it is the person using it.

[caribe]

[Click Up] If I buy it, I plan to keep in my pack the gri-gri for TR belays, the click-up for leading, and the ATC for cleaning and rapping down.

Yes, I had the exact same conclusion ~2 years ago. Then I realized that you can TR belay someone with the Click Up entirely in autoblock mode. When they fall you are not wondering if the device is going to engage because it is already engaged. They can hang dog all they want, the device is locked off. The rope moves through the device one way when it is 'clicked up'. All you have to do is pull down. So I stopped bringing the Gri-Gri, to the crag after a few weekends with the Click Up. Now my quickdraws, Reverso and Click Up keep each other company on my loop.