Trad as a Fad?

[JR]

Bart's Better Red than Dead ("12c") is purported to be substantially harder than the other hard OW's in the Red:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... ute&id=915

Maybe. But it is still given 12c.

[JR]

I think it's going to be a while before Meltdown gets repeated... that thing looks insanely thin, glassy, and burly. It took Beth over 50 (or more?) tries and she was climbing solid mid-14 sport at the time and had onsighted mid-13 cracks including Grand Illusion and Cosmic Debris, as well as getting the second free ascent of the Nose and sending several other El Cap routes... all pretty ahead of their time. By contrast, it's funny that Sasha DG has received so much acclaim and sponsorship hosedowning for snapshackling up a route that has been done almost 10 times now. Not to say it wasn't a great accomplishment ("for an American female anyway," adidas seems to screams at us on the full-page ad in every outdoor-sports-lifestyle magazine on the planet), but it wasn't exactly visionary either.

I get what you are saying...Not surprised you think that a trad FA carries more weight(I am not talking about her rack.(that was a little gross)) than a sport repeat. I agree.

But I bet Beth would love to be as good as Sasha.

[dustonian]

Bart's Better Red than Dead ("12c") is purported to be substantially harder than the other hard OW's in the Red:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... ute&id=915

Maybe. But it is still given 12c.

I don't follow you. The hardest OW Kris & Ray did was given 12b, no?

[JR]

Hidden Dragon 12c in the guidebook.

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... ute&id=175

[pigsteak]

so dustin, are you saying 5.10plus trad is like hard 5.11 sport? and then we magically come in line across the board at 5.12 plus? does that make a 5.11c trad line really 13a? but a 12c trad line is well, 12c? that makes no sense..the more I hear average trad climbers try to justify how much harder 5.10 trad is than 5.10 sport the more I am inclined to agree with OW....in fact, I venture to say that 5.8 trad is substantially easier than 5.8 sport.

[caribe]

I venture to say that 5.8 trad is substantially easier than 5.8 sport.

It is usually the other way around due to the old school effect. It even gets worse when you are talking about 5.8+ put up pre 1985--the closer you get to 5.10 in the era could range in difficult from 5.10 to 5.12. Trad is older than sport. I think this is why sport grades tend to be more prone to grade inflation. My climbing prime directive is to push the sport grade and try to close the gap between my sport and trad grades. This has been my path for a while, but it has not gone very far.

[dustonian]

so dustin, are you saying 5.10plus trad is like hard 5.11 sport? and then we magically come in line across the board at 5.12 plus? does that make a 5.11c trad line really 13a? but a 12c trad line is well, 12c? that makes no sense..the more I hear average trad climbers try to justify how much harder 5.10 trad is than 5.10 sport the more I am inclined to agree with OW....in fact, I venture to say that 5.8 trad is substantially easier than 5.8 sport.

Of course it varies by area and individual route, but on average I would say the easier grades are where it's really off. High Exposure in the Gunks (5.6+) is "solid" RRG 5.9 sport. There are Gunks and Seneca 5.8's that would be 10c in Muir Valley. At the 10-11 range, the disparity is generally less severe: hard 10d-11c trad often feels approximately like the difficulty 11d-12a sport. The effort required to do the boulder problem, Harding Slot, and Enduro Corner pitches on Astroman is roughly equivalent to the effort required to climb 12a here... the Corner even feels about as pumpy as Chainsaw Massacre or Bare Metal Teen. I would say the cruxes on the Naked Edge (11b) in Eldo are about as tricky and powerful as the typical 11d or soft 12a at modern sport areas like the Red or New. In Yosemite I fully expect to fall off 11b/c about 50% of the time onsighting... I honestly can't remember the last time I fell on mid-11 in the Red on an established sport route, and I'm a shitty sport climber mind you (ie. hardest sport=hardest trad=hardest onsight)! There are mid-11 slab and thin crack pitches on Freeblast and the West Face of El Cap and 11a/b offwidths at other crags that the majority of "5.13 climbers" in the Red would fail to flash on toprope... I've seen super strong climbers, very solid on slab even, whimper and desperately sketch their way up the crux pitch of Freeblast (11b).

The grade inflation in sport that's been happening over the last 20 years starts to level off (on average) around mid to hard 12. The few 12c/d trad routes I've been on feel about as hard 12+ sport. And of course, I'm just talking about general patterns... I would say most of your routes that I've done are fairly accurate, as an example (and listen to all the modern gym-bred weenies whine about how "sandbagged" your 10's and 11's are... because they do feel sandbagged compared to the typical modern grade-inflated route!). It totally depends on the developer, the climbing area, and the era the route was put up in.

[clif]

i'm out of my league here but crack a go go and thin ice felt like easy 10's to me, rixon's pinnacle seemed 10+

[pigsteak]

I venture to say that 5.8 trad is substantially easier than 5.8 sport.

It is usually the other way around due to the old school effect. It even gets worse when you are talking about 5.8+ put up pre 1985--the closer you get to 5.10 in the era could range in difficult from 5.10 to 5.12. Trad is older than sport. I think this is why sport grades tend to be more prone to grade inflation. My climbing prime directive is to push the sport grade and try to close the gap between my sport and trad grades. This has been my path for a while, but it has not gone very far.

trad is older than sport....morse code is older than texting.....horse carriages are older than corvettes....

all the more reason to do away with this antiquated method of protecting single pitch climbs.

[pigsteak]

dustin, did you rate stormtrooper to be a real 5.9 or really a 5.11a?