Trad as a Fad?

[JR]

It could be that cracks tend not to break but crimps and other larger irregularities that we rely on tend to break.

I agree.

IMO climbing crack is so body parameter intensive that the grade depends on the match in size between the finger and the crack. Crack is more difficult to grade. IC grades go by size more or less.

I agree sort of... I would maybe say that Crack climbs are easier to grade at Indian Creek because the routes are so homogeneous. That is to say that they are basically all the same angle and they tend to stay the same size. So once there is a precedent grade for a size and length then you just use that grade.***

Granted that sounded like I don't agree with you at all but the "body parameter" thing does come into play when certain size cracks will make for a more or less difficult experience but not necessarily be reflected in a higher or lower grade.

The "body parameter" thing happens all over the climbing map. Think small pockets, big spans, different size pinch holds yada yada yada...

*** I have never been to Indian Creek. lol.

[Syphur]

Trad is the only place left to hide. After the pack of 10 year olds pissed all over the Red's 13+/14- there's just no pretending its rad any more.

Best statement thus far.

[ynp1]

I think the solo thing is not a great point. I agree with caribe, and I thing that is why a lot of people like to solo cracks. I remember when bacher died soloing a 5.10 face climb and many of his friends said that the warned him not to solo face climbs in that area, because hold break. soloing face climbs are a lot riskier then soloing splitter cracks. This does not mean that cracks are easier, but thet they are more secure.

Do you want me to bring OW back? Well look at his name? 5.12OW? Is he not bragging about being a 5.12 trad climber? When was the last time you heard a sport climber brag about being a 5.12 sport climber? Also he has now done plenty of 5.13s, I hope ( he is in all the maxim adds). But where are the 5.13 cracks that he claims are so easy?

But, I do agree with OW on the point that I think the grades are equal. I have climbed as hard of cracks as I have sport climbs. It really just depends on what I am focusing on at that time.

[camhead]

Trad is the only place left to hide. After the pack of 10 year olds pissed all over the Red's 13+/14- there's just no pretending its rad any more.

Best statement thus far.

The next big thing is going to be when the 10 year olds find out that they can climb all the ultra thin cracks like Meltdown and start downgrading them all.

[caribe]

Trad is the only place left to hide. After the pack of 10 year olds pissed all over the Red's 13+/14- there's just no pretending its rad any more.

Best statement thus far.

The next big thing is going to be when the 10 year olds find out that they can climb all the ultra thin cracks like Meltdown and start downgrading them all.

NOW that shit is FUNNY!!

[JR]

Do you want me to bring OW back? Well look at his name? 5.12OW? Is he not bragging about being a 5.12 trad climber? When was the last time you heard a sport climber brag about being a 5.12 sport climber? Also he has now done plenty of 5.13s, I hope ( he is in all the maxim adds). But where are the 5.13 cracks that he claims are so easy?

I am sure 512OW would do a better job straightening you out on this...I would like a crack(no pun) at it though. Let's go point by point.

Do you want me to bring OW back?

Go ahead.

Well look at his name? 5.12OW?

So.

Is he not bragging about being a 5.12 trad climber?

Yep.

When was the last time you heard a sport climber brag about being a 5.12 sport climber?

15 years.

Where are the 5.13 cracks that he claims are so easy?

This one is confusing. When did he say that?

At the time, 5.12 Off-Width was the upper end at the Red(still is). All the hardest OW FA's at the Red are still Kris' and Ray's. If they where into Sport climbing back then I am sure they would have been climbing 5.12 sport too.

[dustonian]

At the time, 5.12 Off-Width was the upper end at the Red(still is). All the hardest OW FA's at the Red are still Kris' and Ray's.

Bart's Better Red than Dead ("12c") is purported to be substantially harder than the other hard OW's in the Red:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... ute&id=915

I think ynp1 was just getting at the point that 5.12 trad is still somewhat sprayworthy while you really need to be climbing at least 13+ or 5.14 sport to even consider spraying these days. Is that because climbing 5.12 sport is easier? Of course it is (for almost everyone anyway), but who cares? It's really like 2 different "sports." In any case I do think the grades finally start to level out a bit somewhere around 12+.

[JR]

The next big thing is going to be when the 10 year olds find out that they can climb all the ultra thin cracks like Meltdown and start downgrading them all.

Interesting. What if you extrapolated this idea? Teased it out.

...Then the humble 10 year old puts up a slew of hideously small finger cracks or routes with very small holds with relatively low grades because they were easy for the tot. What happens next? Do the grown ups "fix" the grades by raising them to adult standards?

[dustonian]

I think it's going to be a while before Meltdown gets repeated... that thing looks insanely thin, glassy, and burly. It took Beth over 50 (or more?) tries and she was climbing solid mid-14 sport at the time and had onsighted mid-13 cracks including Grand Illusion and Cosmic Debris, as well as getting the second free ascent of the Nose and sending several other El Cap routes... all pretty ahead of their time. By contrast, it's funny that Sasha DG has received so much acclaim and sponsorship hosedowning for snapshackling up a route that has been done almost 10 times now. Not to say it wasn't a great accomplishment ("for an American female anyway," adidas seems to screams at us on the full-page ad in every outdoor-sports-lifestyle magazine on the planet), but it wasn't exactly visionary either.

[Syphur]

Not to downplay what Sasha did but had Adidas not bought 5.10 I doubt you'd be hearing nearly as much about that.