Community Meeting - Nov 9th

[stix]

The draws did, conveniently, belong to a friend of many of the folks taking draws down, but she wasn't on board with, present, or a part of it in any way. I understand that the line is vague and maybe irrelevant, but I don't think any draws were removed that would've been considered project draws rather than perma or fixed draws.

Just saying that I don't think any of the people interested in lessening the number of fixed draws in the red are in the business of taking down quickdraws (which are in good condition) that are clearly being used by someone to project a route in the standard way that we all project routes.

[Clevis Hitch]

I just wanna say from the beginning till now...My dick and your mouth...what is obvious to me is that all you fucks need a good deep dickin...what is also obvious is the overt foaming vaginosis that makes this whole joint reek... If you cant control your own pussy, how do you think you can control another?

Tomorrow is opening day of gun season, its nine o'clock and I'm three sheets thinking about whats gonna go down tomorrow.
I have a 338 and an attitude. Gawd I love me!!

Suffice it to say that I love the fact that all of you fucks degenerate into he said, she said, just like on Maury. Complete trailer. I love the fact that you'll never get your shit together and rock the casbah! It will always turn into this venerable infighting . Just like it always has. What we as a community are left with is ashes, and we all fall down. There is no wizard. ther is no cohesion. There is just individuals doing individual things, together...(think about that) and that is we, the us. (say that real slow twice).

I love being part of a non-non...

[Artsay]

Michelle- I was the one who asked for a vote and it was only to see where the people in attendance stood on the matter of fixed gear at the red. It was made clear that this was the only purpose of this vote and that it was representative only of the people voting. I did not abstain from voting. All things considered it was fairly constructive thanks in large part to Shannon's facilitating skills.

Good, that clears up a bit of confusion for me. Thanks.

[clif]

I just wanna say from the beginning till now...My dick and your mouth...what is obvious to me is that all you fucks need a good deep dickin...what is also obvious is the overt foaming vaginosis that makes this whole joint reek... If you cant control your own pussy, how do you think you can control another?

Tomorrow is opening day of gun season, its nine o'clock and I'm three sheets thinking about whats gonna go down tomorrow.
I have a 338 and an attitude. Gawd I love me!!

Suffice it to say that I love the fact that all of you fucks degenerate into he said, she said, just like on Maury. Complete trailer. I love the fact that you'll never get your shit together and rock the casbah! It will always turn into this venerable infighting . Just like it always has. What we as a community are left with is ashes, and we all fall down. There is no wizard. ther is no cohesion. There is just individuals doing individual things, together...(think about that) and that is we, the us. (say that real slow twice).

I love being part of a non-non...

a big hard giant penis to the head. i love you too, gawd338.

[kneebar]

So I'm going to chime in again to give my opinion. No plan will make everybody happy, be nice if everybody could be at least on board finding a common ground that they can except and comply with which is impossible. So I see several options none of which are ideal for myself. I'm pulling the devils advocate card on this one but I would except any of the options because I except the risks of being a rock climber.

A: you are a rock climber, you climb at your own risk. Remove everything from the bolts except the chains at the anchors on every route. Not an ideal solution but it is clear cut it and removes all the PD mank. I've heard all the excuses, "but it is hard if not impossible to clean".....really. This isn't your job, it's rock climbing, it's supposed to be challenging. Do a top rope cleaning........oh, but that takes time and valuable energy, again it's recreation, deal with it or leave it as booty.

B: leave it kind of the way it is PD's rule! You are a rock climber, you have excepted to climb at your own risk, you inspect everything and take full responsibility for what you clip. Darwin rules, you fuck it up you deserve the consequences. This always sounds good until (insert Freinds name) got killed or severely jacked. Then the community or a few close friends rally to make changes so it lessons the possibility of it happening again.

C: you are a rock climber, you climb at your own risk. Permanent draws everywhere, YEA BABY, it's just like the gym dude. We put them on everything, it looks like a fucking glistening Christmas tree in the full moon!. Do our best to maintain them......no different then maintaining bolts including liability, but im not a lawyer, just seems common sense to me. Everybody takes a loan out on all our shit to be as lazy as possible and still be a rock climber.

D: you are a rock climber, you climb at your own risk. We try to do a combination of everything. Permanents for cleaning, anchors on some. Project draws left by responsible climbers. With this I do believe if you are leaving project draws it is your responsibility to make sure they are in excellent condition for anyone climbing the route for the duration of your project. Maybe a steel biner for a crux bolt. If you feel the need to leave them they should be safe, don't look it as a "community service". You want to take over the climb, maintain it including making sure to remove the draws when your project is done.

The RRGCC goal is to provide access to climbing, not regulate bolting practices.

Ken

[Josephine]

At the beginning of the meeting we all agreed that the NUMBER ONE RULE IN CLIMBING IS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL GEAR.

I was asked to take notes. They are not formatted well. There are mis-spellings. I can only type 90 wpm and people tend to talk at 120+ wpm so I didn't get everything. But here is the gist

Perma/project/cleaning draw climbers’ meeting
Wednesday, November 9, 2011

Meeting started at 5:30

Attendees: Dave Scott, Kipp Trummel, Brent Dupree, Joe, Cletus, Sean, Zach Romero, Jamon, Paul Vidal, Shannon Stuart-Smith, Erika Skaggs, Pete McDermot, Dario Ventura, Sean, Todd McCormick, Art Cammers, Hugh Loeffler, Joel (by telephone conference) and Josephine Neff.

Identify Key Issues
- Liability – Joe brought up the KY statute that deals with liability and said by discussing this it creates too much of a liability
- Sustainability – Dave felt that it is not sustainability. Shannon suggested that the permadraws would fall under the same category as bolts. Zach felt the costs would be too much. Erika felt there is a functional difference between the draw and the bolt.
- Safety – Erika felt that climbers are less likely to pay attention to the bolt so they are paying attention to the draw instead. Shannon felt that we all have personally responsibility for any gear we clip. Shannon felt that since the overriding rule is that the climber has personal responsibility the issue is really education rather than safety. Erika felt that permadraws create a situation where we know that people are not paying attention and a solution would be greater education. Joe said that if you go to a retailer that you are using their bolt for climbing the retailer will not sell the bolt since it is not being used for its original purpose.
Goal and purpose of removing perma draws
- Cletus explained that every person had their own reasoning. He felt that by placing pema draws it is local community’s responsibly to maintain that. He felt that all the routes on the undertow wall are safe to clean with existing gear. He felt that people climbing on fixed gear do not consider that the gear is subject to wear/tear and they do not consider it. It requires a lower skill set to climb at a cliff with perma draws. It makes it a gym atmosphere. It sets the bar low for accepted basic skill levels of climbers at the red. In repercussions to that we’ve had an increase of avoidable accidents at the red. If perma draws are to avoid leaving aluminum draws that is not a solution – steel can get just as sharp eventually. He felt it was better to offer fixed anchors and cleaning gear on routes difficult to clean. Establishing an ethic of what climbing is in the red, once it’s known and published and accepted, perma draws are for convenience and there’s no argument that says that climbing on fixed gear is safer than climbing on your own. It is difficult to get a consensus of a community. When we removed the draws the land owner was consulted and he said “if that’s what you want to do I won’t call the police.”
- Shannon summarized that Cletus felt it was climber behavior – climbers weren’t inspecting their draws. They violated the principle that climbers were not following the personal responsibility for all gear. Cletus took action to preemptively prevent accidents and bad climber behavior.
- Zach shared that in the last few years the climbing in general has taken on an air of being safe and convenient. Stemming from leave no trace, these draws were bringing people to the cliff – everyone has the right to be at the cliff – but people who are going to the cliff and putting massive wear and tear on the draws wouldn’t be up there if there were no perma draws. These are the people that are causing accidents and shitting at the base of the crag. Zach feels if you can’t summit a route without hanging the draws you shouldn’t be on it. Zach feels the issue is impact on the crag and that they’re bring more people to the crag than should be there.
- Shannon pointed out that Zach’s use of the word “should” expressed that there’s a standard codified of behavior.
- Kipp Trummell asked how many draws were pulled. Zach responded everything from Bevis to Verdict. He asked how many were steel permadraws. They said approximately only 5% of the draws removed were steel. The climbtech draws were placed on the cave not on the undertow wall.
- Sean summarized that the core reason was impact on the crag and sustainability. The one theme he heard was sustainability of the crag and the amount of people that are coming to the red and destroying it without any knowledge of rules, customs, or courtesies of the area.
- Shannon summarized that the perma draws created an unneeded impact on the crag.
- Hugh thinks the perma draw issue is a distractor the whole time. He’s glad they did it since it brought issues into the open. Not having the perma draws there is an impedance to the climbers at the cliff. By not having them there removes a group of climbers that would have gone there. By having more people at the cliff it generates more undesirable behavior. As a culture we haven’t transmitted our culture and etiquette at the cliff. He hopes we can lay that groundwork tonight and get community expectations.
- Hugh feels there is consensus that not having the perma draws there has changed the atmosphere at the lode.
- Shannon paraphrased: perma draws increased usage – more people, more climbing hours, because of perma draws.
- Dave felt that steel has a short life expectancy on easier routes
- Hugh asked at what point do we have a legal. Attractive Nuisance applies to juveniles not adults. Attractive Nuisance is a legal term that applies to junveniales because they cannot reason for themselves.
- Shannon recapped – everything is coming back to climber behavior. If you have a draw you have to maintain it. A draw will wear out faster than a bolt. If you have fixed gear you have to maintain it just like a bolt. Everything else that’s been discussed is climber behavior. Shannon suggested try to change climber behavior by education, removing draws, or many ways.
- Erika felt there’s a second issue – the issue of who makes the choices. The phrase “cowboy up” has been used to describe this. That has been a source of much friction and anger. Cletus responded by asking how this was different from rebolting a crag. Erika felt that there must be a difference since we don’t have community meetings every time a route is rebolted. You can join team suck or donate or join the coalition and have a democratic process. With this group it’s hard to have a conversation and it’s a hard group to be a part of.
- Shannon summarized – Erika noticed that the removing draws caused anger.
- Paul felt this was a contentious issue because in the past perma draws have been largely accepted in this community. The Red is at a tipping point with its popularity in how the community wants to go. The community wants to make decisions about managing its ethic and culture. In the past it was accepted. It does lead to increased use and impact. Paul felt we need to come up with a group decision about what kind of ethic do we want to have. It’s a difficult decision to come to an agreement on. He feel it will take several years to decide on. It’s a good issue to be brought to light since it’s fundamental issue. What as climbers do we want to see our culture become and how do we want to conduct ourselves behaviorally, ethically, and morally.
- Shannon recapped: Paul wants to go forward. In the political process people get to vote and this is not a political process.
- Hugh pointed out that it took the rash movement on their point. What angers people is that it was a unilataratal action.
- Dario felt that this whole scenario was on the verge of going a different direction when Ben and Laura died. Their death was because fixed gear that broke. Dario thinks this is a reflaring of this issue.
- Dave felt that he was tired of climbing on sharp gear. He bought 170 steel biners. He thought the gear would last 5 years; however, the gear will not last that long. He feels the red is too busy with too much traffic. He feels that there will be routes where gear needs to be. This is for safety and cleaning issues.
- Erika asked about what the difference is between routes: Dave explained that the undertow wall overhangs 20 feet, but the madness cave overhangs 80 feet.
- Todd felt that there are situational ethics which make a problem. He spoke to Brian Toy who bolted the madness. He felt that there is a gray area over which routes need draws, cleaning gear, or no draws. At what point do we equip one route over another.
- Cletus felt that community gear should go on the route that are hardest to clean.
- Either no fixed gear at all or there are some by agreement these are really super hard so we’ll use it on some or leave up.
- Jamon felt that we cannot have a discussion about safety. The issue is about convenience not safety. The reason people are upset is that the Crew made it less convenient to climb for the first time in the past 20 years.
- Paul pointed out that the fundraisers for buying fixed gear. Team Suck doesn’t have a board, bylaws, or any way to raise money. They assume liability themselves without support from the coalition. No matter what we talk about – it all requires maintenance. Whether isn’t an informal committee to raise funds for perma draws. Everyone wants to build it and not maintain it. The coalition will not maintain. He wasn’t sure how to organize it.
- Joe empathized that all gear placed on all rock is abandoned gear.
- Sean would like to come up with ways to fix climber behavior. Perma draws are a symptom. It’s abandoned gear. Shannon brought a legal description – if you leave project draws with the intent to return they are not abandoned gear.
- Perma draws – left for community use; Project draws – owner will return.
- Dave Scott suggested a middle ground to leave things as is and when a person decides that the draw is worn out they pull it.
- Art feels that an iron clad constitution or set of rules is not as functional as what we have currently had. We can only have voluntary compliance.
- Hugh asked how are we going to affect the behavior change and get the message out. How do we reach the “masses.” We’ve tried message boards, kiosks, have terry kindred yell at people at the cliff. There needs to be a better more effective mechanism.
- Cletus recapped the informal meeting at Miguel’s ended with Hugh and Chris leaving the meeting. Cletus wanted to have a vote to see how people feel.
Summary
- It’s a community and consensus. It’s about education there’s no such thing as perfect compliance and education. The world is divided into two groups (1) where someone has the authority (that’s the police force/state) (2) everyone else is voluntary compliance. This is all through compliance
- Three possibilities
1. There are no perma draws, project draws, cleaning draws
2. We can have a method for having some draws on some routes for cleaning
3. We can leave it the way it’s been
- Regardless whatever we decide then it falls on everyone to comply.
- At this point we have a general group consensus. We can come together as a group – vote on it here – vote on the board.
- We need to come up with a process. Generally speaking the majority feel this way. Cletus’ goal by the end of the year is the Drive by, Dark Side & GMC stripped of perma draws.
- Hugh felt that we should not make a distinction between perma/project draws. He feels that even if it’s a bomber climbtech draw and he doesn’t like it, he’s taking it down. He would like to take the draws off and leave it. He would like self regulation.
- Shannon feels this could be the agreed to RRG standard – that whatever is left is subject to be removed at any time.
- Dave talked to SCC and they are very hard core down there. Their community pulls draws down if they’re left.
- Paul feels the perma draws are a symptom of the ethics. It will never be perfect no matter how hard we try. He feels that the assholes at the cliff is the best method. Hugh would like signage.
- Shannon asked if we had consensus that any fixed gear is subject to removal by the next person who comes along.
- Josephine asked if this was different than before. Hugh explained in the past perma draws were considered sacred.
- Shannon proposed a default: All perma draws were subject to removal. Community tolerated left gear in circumstances to be determined later.
- Kipp asked if there would be an annual clean up. Clean off the draws every year.
- Art suggested that it was impossible to decide on which route(s) get gear.
- Paul suggested that we’re less than 20 of us in the room and so we need to educate others.
- The land owner has absolute domain over their property.
- Dave pointed out that no draws on forest service land. The Webers want fixed gear on some routes.
Vote
Shannon called a vote by show of hands to see who is in favor.
The RRG Standard:
Default value: all subject to removal, community tolerated left gear
Joel confirmed that if someone leaves project draws they are subject to be taken. Hugh explained that by leaving your project draws you can’t assume someone else wants to climb on them. Draws would be left at the base of the route and signs would be placed.
Show of hands: there were 6 in favor – 1 not in favor – 7 abstentions.
- Paul stated that the coalition was not ready to make a stance. As a landowner he should not vote. He felt that he should not vote incase his vote was considered for the coalition.
- Erika felt that the argument was one sided. Sean pointed out that if you can’t say yea or nay you can’t argue against it.
- Sean wanted to get another argument on the board.
- Erika felt that there’s only 1 side of the issue because there’s a lot of people that are far away that won’t be at these meetings. She felt that there’s a selection bias in this room.
- Hugh explained that this needs to be explained because they were accepted. The switch to perma draws came from when everyone was hanging their draws on undertow wall.
- Dario feels that whatever the outcome is the answer is education. Dario says as a business he can make people aware.
- Sean pointed out it’s hard to enforce education and regulate and manage this. One of the few places that have done it is that Hueco Tanks. We do not have the ability to do this.
- Shannon shared the first step to changing behavior is to define the behavior. Communicate it. Encourage/Discourage it.
- Hugh said we do have a selection bias and we’re saying something that no one has issue with.
- Shannon pointed out that the rate of change becomes unacceptable. AS a group we want to do something about it. It may work and it may not. Since we won’t get behavior change until we define what we want. This is a first attempt.
- Hugh feels these values support the actions of the Crew in removing draws. Hugh feels that now we have defined our values people will suppor.
- We can’t have 2 standards – 1 for the winter and 1 for when crowds are here.
- Josephine suggested putting the vote on the website. The consensus of the room was that was not a good idea.
- Shannon felt that the consensus of this room is to go to a stricter standard.
- Hugh pointed out after everyone goes back to their home we are the locals that clean up the cliff. A future issue when we lay down values we need a few other etiquette issues at the cliff.
- Paul pointed out the RRGCC Cannot support the point of view but will say they support the community decisions.

Meeting adjourned at 7:30

[pigsteak]

thx josi

[Clevis Hitch]

ghay...

[ynp1]

Word

[Josephine]

ghay...

you can say that because you were there. However, there's been pages and pages of speculation by people that didn't attend the meeting. They should at least know what went on before they continue their rant.

Did you get your videos posted yet? Then notes/summary aren't important because people can relive the fun forever