Community Meeting - Nov 9th

[Clevis Hitch]

The reason that I think alot of the people who showed up did so to make sure some "community" ethic didn't get passed re: railroaded / and the rest of us get stuck with some onerous process or another onerous organization to deal with.

I think thats why there were so many anstension (non-votes).

[cletuswilcox]

climb2core / dustonian - No one at the meeting suggested or insinuated that they were interested in taking people's project draws or fixed gear as booty and none of us were there to draft a proposal to be accepted or refuted by you or anyone else in the community. It seemed to me a lot of us were there because we either care about the RRG or we thought that the community was serious about getting on the same page and talking about future solutions to problems at the red. There were four or five people from the crew at both meetings. If anyone had any questions for us or anything they'd liked to have told us face to face the 2 meetings that have been called by 'non' crew members of the community would have been a good time. Josephine took detailed notes of the meeting if you're interested in reading them.

[Artsay]

I would have liked to attend the meeting, a weekend would be better for me and anybody driving much of a distance. Working and living 4 hours away makes it tough during the week. I am surprised more climbers didn't show up to voice there opinion. But thanks for getting something put together Shannon.

I would hope whatever gets decided it is fair accross the grade and clear cut, gray areas make it tough for everyone.

I completely agree with you, Ken.

I couldn't attend. I'm working 14 hour days right now to meet a big project deadline. I left work at 9:30pm that night and got an update shortly after and I know of others that also couldn't attend for higher priority reasons. That doesn't mean their opinion doesn't count.

As far as a vote...I'm so surprised to hear this. I even joked on page 2 in this thread about the meeting having a vote. From what I understand, one person asked if there should be a vote just to see what folks were thinking in the room and now it's standing as the final agreement? I find it even more odd that the person that called the vote abstained from voting. This situation isn't black and white and those that attended are not the elected voice of the community.

This situation is no different than the old traddies rebelling against bolts. This is yet another shift in climbing and folks are up in arms. Whether it be bolts or a fixed anchor, or a fixed cleaner, or a fixed draw....it's all abandonded hardware that may be damaged, worn, or stolen and we all know this. But to know that someone may remove my project draws I leave on a route to police me is where it turns personal.

The discussion is good but the resulting family feud is sickening.
Not sure where to go from here but I appreciate Shannon for attempting to keep thoughts organized.

[allah]

LIKE ^^^^

[cletuswilcox]

Michelle- I was the one who asked for a vote and it was only to see where the people in attendance stood on the matter of fixed gear at the red. It was made clear that this was the only purpose of this vote and that it was representative only of the people voting. I did not abstain from voting. All things considered it was fairly constructive thanks in large part to Shannon's facilitating skills.

[climb2core]

Cletus, I think you are misunderstanding my position. I support the effort of everyone that took time to show up. I do think you were putting your collective heads together to work for a solution to the fixed gear debate that could become a proposal for the community at large to weigh in on.

We differ in opinions in about the methedogy the crew acted upon and I think your ideological reasons for stripping the lode. Pm sent

[vertical1]

There are new Petzl quickdraws on Pure Imagination.....?

[stix]

I don't get the feeling that anyone is in any way interested in taking down anyone's project draws that are hanging on a route and in good shape. The prevailing idea that I'm getting from reading through this is that fixing every popular route with PD's may not be the way to go right now. Dustonian, i also don't think that anyone is interested in removing any gear related to development. I understand that the literal wording from these folks at the meeting comes across differently, but I don't think anyone speaking up on this site or at these meetings wants to hinder your ability to develop or maintain routes in the red. I don't think any of your all's gear was touched at the undertow when they stripped the draws. There were also a set of project draws on low easy one the day they stripped and those draws were left up for the climber to continue projecting on. The same goes for stained i believe.

What I'm taking away from this is that these folks think PD's everywhere may be a bad idea for various reasons (maintenance, complacency, etc...) and that if you leave your draws on a route you're projecting (assuming the landowner is ok with this), take them down when you're done. In addition, a few fixed draws for cleaning or notoriously hard clips could make everyone's life easier. I don't hear folks saying they want to police the red and steal draws and hardware.

[dustonian]

I hear ya Keenan... I know Cletus, Zac, Snyd et al. have good intentions and are not out to steal anyone's draws (or penises). What concerns me is the way the statement that "anyone is free to remove gear from any route at any time" (to paraphrase) could be exploited by individuals who might be less scrupulous or tuned in to climbing's history and complex set of "ethics," & I feel making any sort of "official" statement to that effect in a way condones such actions as stealing project draws and/or route development gear. Whatever, it's just an extra 45 minutes or hour a day now to strip and rehang draws/RBs every time now while bolting/rebolting steep routes... but unfortunately for me in my sad little life right now, I don't have much time to spare.

[vertical1]

The reason The Low Easy One was not stripped of its draws was because the person projecting it was a part of the CREW. Gotta protect their own.