Community Meeting - Nov 9th

[dustonian]

Of course you are free to do whatever you want, Ian... just don't touch my draws, because I already know they're fine. And I already know the support for such an event will be low and short-lived. There is no way in hell you can police every sport route in the area on a single day. This sort of reminds me how everyone used to pretend to be environmentalist on "Earth Day," and then go back to the same ol', same ol' the other 364 days a year!

[climb2core]

If "increasing safety" is really your objective, then you need to teach them all how to belay, clean anchors, and rappel too. This would have orders of magnitude greater impact then playing around with draws all day.

How many deaths have been caused by mank sport draws in the Red? Zero. How many groundfalls, close calls, and deaths from bad basic safety techniques? I'm afraid to even count.

The intent of this was initially focused on passive safety devices... equipment and hardware. I would classify Ben and Laura's accident under mank gear. IMO, it is only a matter of time before there is a an event from a ginsu biner.

Rappeling, belaying, etc require a more personal relationship and is not easily managed with "this is an example of..." It requires repetition and time. I have and do invite new climbers to climb with me from time to time for just that purpose.

Most of the accidents have happened because of inattentive belaying. I try to say shit to people all the time about that. Last time I was out at Torrent, a guy had out enough rope to touch the ground, and the climber was at the second bolt. I spoke up because I do try be pro active in my approach to safety and not let the climber learn via the Darwin approach. You can't always fix people's behavior because they are stupid, but you can modify behavior if they are just uneducated and willing to change.

However, if someone can think of a way to incorporate basic safety skills into the event, I would be for that as well. Isn't there something like that at Rocktoberfest?

[dustonian]

Yes... U-Climb.

[climb2core]

What makes you assume that we aren't already doing this?

Huh?

I said...
I suspect that you do try to provide mentorship and promote safe climbing in your micro-community.

[bcombs]

Don't get me wrong, I guess I'm all for the community doing what it can / wants to do to promote safety. I just want to be clear that disagreeing with that approach is not callous. I don't know how true this is, but another climber once told me that in KY something as simple as putting up a fence implies that a land owner is taking steps that could result in a greater burden or responsibility if someone were to get hurt, say, climbing over the fence. Or, if for example you waive someone in another car through an intersection and they get hit, you could be liable for directing traffic. I have no idea how valid these scenarios are, and people talk about many others just like it, but the moral of the story is the same. The more you are involved the more responsibility you assume for the outcome of another persons actions. I'm happy to mentor my micro-community, but I have reservations about a community driven safety training. Seems like a recipe for disaster. Now mind you, I'm a flip flopper. I had the same reservations about U-Climb, but I was willing to guide / mentor in that scenario. $0.02.

[caribe]

If you don't want to participate in an event like the one I proposed to educate climbers on mank gear (and in the process have them assess and fix it) then so be it.

In the long run such an event might increase the mank factor. We will be climbing with the notion that the gear is checked yearly and has received a stamp of approval from the safely krew. We all know an Al biner could wear to Ginsu status faster than a year. False security is worse than none.

[dustonian]

Yes, I have always felt this is the primary drawback of the ClimbTech PDs, which look SO permanent in bomber, but in reality actually have quite a short shelf-life. At least aluminum draws obviously LOOK jingus, inspiring a second glance/check by most sensible climbers, and are easy to remove. Official "safety systems" and so-called "permanent draws" inspire complacency in many individual climbers.

[climb2core]

Of course you are free to do whatever you want, Ian... just don't touch my draws, because I already know they're fine. And I already know the support for such an event will be low and short-lived. There is no way in hell you can police every sport route in the area on a single day. This sort of reminds me how everyone used to pretend to be environmentalist on "Earth Day," and then go back to the same ol', same ol' the other 364 days a year!

Dustin,
Isn't the consensus as of now that if you leave your shit, consider it abandoned and don't come whining if you find it gone in the morning? How hard would it really be for you to pull your draws off for one day in the year? Certain walls would lend themselves more to being "policed" such as the Lode or Bob Marley. If people knew of routes where aluminum has been hanging for an extended time, those routes would be individually targeted. Hopefully community funds would provided replacement steel biners so that the pd equipped routes could be taken care of.

As far turn out and impact.. I have no idea. If everyone has yours and the other recent objectors viewpoints.. You are right, it will just be another earth day.

[dustonian]

No, this is just what came out of a meeting of a handful of people last night. At the majority of sport climbing areas worldwide, it is still considered an "asshole" move unless the draws are ACTUALLY dangerous or the landowner/manager requests their removal.

All that said, if you want to round up a KREW of your own or just go by yourself to check all the draws at Bob Marley, for instance, that would certainly be a service to the community.

[climb2core]

If you don't want to participate in an event like the one I proposed to educate climbers on mank gear (and in the process have them assess and fix it) then so be it.

In the long run such an event might increase the mank factor. We will be climbing with the notion that the gear is checked yearly and has received a stamp of approval from the safely krew. We all know an Al biner could wear to Ginsu status faster than a year. False security is worse than none.

Really, Art will you stop inspecting gear? The event would also have a message that while one day (or two) a year are designated for the event, we all need to be part of the solution every day.