caribe wrote:I find that the litter is less from climbers and more from hikers and campers and people throwing shit off the top of the cliffs. We need to do something about the fact that the gumbies are racing to Mr. Bungle and making new trails to do so. The impact from off trail access up at LF is ugly. Who do we ask permission to do trail work?
No, I typically leave the crag with a plastic bag full of finger/stickclipping tape, cigarette butts, energy bar wrappers, and even empty red bull cans.
climb2core wrote:... but it sounds like it was a waste of time and gas money?
No, the discussion was productive and I dare say even civil.
..
► What I got from the meeting: Given that communal approval of PD's increases the burden of maintenance. The community can shift the burden of gear maintenance and responsibility to the individual by severely limiting PD use.
..
►How my Operating Procedure changes as a result of the meeting: I (many of us do/did) used to swap out worn, sharp or dysfunctional carabiners with better biners from my supply. I have a loop full of Ginsu biners. From now on I will swap out gear only if the draw/ biner has served in a climbing/ cleaning function for an extended period of time. I won't give up my good biners to a community that pulls gear off routes without communication or consensus. If the gear is jingus I will pull it piece-wise and not replace it. So, if you think your route is fully equipped with PD's but you can't see all the bolts, you better leave the ground with a draw or 3.
Chris Kalous wrote:... this sounds like a bunch of kids trying to hammer out the rules to kick the can or something. Only children want ethics to be black and white, no negotiation, what works here and now will work everywhere and always. The only rule is don't be an asshole.
caribe wrote:
►How my Operating Procedure changes as a result of the meeting: I (many of us do/did) used to swap out worn, sharp or dysfunctional carabiners with better biners from my supply. I have a loop full of Ginsu biners. From now on I will swap out gear only if the draw/ biner has served in a climbing/ cleaning function for an extended period of time. I won't give up my good biners to a community that pulls gear off routes without communication or consensus. If the gear is jingus I will pull it piece-wise and not replace it. So, if you think your route is fully equipped with PD's but you can't see all the bolts, you better leave the ground with a draw or 3.
Indeed, a logical solution and the way things "should be"/usually are. Take gear down when it genuinely needs to be taken down for safety reasons and/or actual landowner or manager request. Don't replace it if you don't want to. It really doesn't have to be so complicated. By contrast, taking down perfectly good steel draws because you don't like crowds in October at an international destination was a so-called "asshole" move by the above criteria. We can't even finish rebolting the Undertow now for fear our draws will get swiped during the process!
Last edited by dustonian on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clevis Hitch wrote:So what I took away from the meeting by the vote taking is that most people abstained from voting. In fact there were four people for adopting language that said that "You climb at your own risk". One agianst and 12 abstentions.
Are you sure we were at the same meeting?
The vote was over the new standard:
ALL GEAR is subject to removal at any time with the exception of community tolerated left gear (which was not defined as to how to determine which gear was community gear and which was not - it was decided we would have to define that in the future).
"Unthinkably good things can happen, even late in the game." ~ Under the Tuscan Sun
Josephine wrote:The vote was over the new standard:
ALL GEAR is subject to removal at any time with the exception of community tolerated left gear (which was not defined as to how to determine which gear was community gear and which was not - it was decided we would have to define that in the future).
So basically, we are going on the CREW method until community gear is defined, with exception that we don't leave it at Miguel's?
As a phone in guest it was hard to discuss matters, I don't think anyone could hear me very well. My biggest concern was when we were actually taking a vote as to weather or not to make it accepted behavior to steal project draws off of a line, I couldn't tell but hopefully my vote against was counted. It was encouraging that so many people abstained from voting, even when someone ( don't know who cus I couldn't see them) tried to encourage a vote by essentially saying that abstention was a vote against, in my eyes this "either for us or against us" attitude was a bit heavy handed and scary. I believe that several options for a vote were presented, I would like to suggest one more:
Since people will be leaving project draws up anyway and discouraging this will likely be hard if not impossible
->Draws left up are abandoned gear, if you see something dangerous take it down, but don't feel ethically obligated to replace it.
side note:
If you are against abandoned gear, take it all down but leave the gear available to its owner. Do know that they were not actively trying to step on your space when they put it up, and that you ARE actively stepping on someone else space when you remove it
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared
krampus wrote:
Since people will be leaving project draws up anyway and discouraging this will likely be hard if not impossible
Yep.
krampus wrote:If you are against abandoned gear, take it all down but leave the gear available to its owner.
Right. And leaving it "available" to its owner is not the same thing as dropping it off at a pizza shop ten miles down the road. At least make an effort, jeez.
Whatever happened to "when in Rome, do as the Romans do?"
krampus wrote:
Since people will be leaving project draws up anyway and discouraging this will likely be hard if not impossible
->Draws left up are abandoned gear, if you see something dangerous take it down, but don't feel ethically obligated to replace it.
side note:
If you are against abandoned gear, take it all down but leave the gear available to its owner. Do know that they were not actively trying to step on your space when they put it up, and that you ARE actively stepping on someone else space when you remove it
I disagree, if every climber that hangs draws and leaves then comes back to there project and the draws are gone there will be. A: a good amount of ass beating to start and B: eventually you will be able to hang your own draws when you walk up to the cliff. It will be more like it was generally 15 years ago.
I disagree with your side note also.....I'm not trying to start a fight with you just giving you my opinion. By leaving your pd's you are leaving trash on the wall for others to clean up no matter there condition, if anyone is actively stepping on anyones toes it's not the climber who has to clean someone else's project. Who knows how long the pd's have been in place?
