The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

[mikeyw]

As a local climbing community we have opened our arms to people like Keith Ladsinsky, Andy Mann, Sasha Digullian, Jonathon Seigrist, Dan Brayack, (the list goes on.....) to come to the RED and plug us in completely to mainstream climbing media. I would add that the amount of exposure the RRG gets from these climbers/photographers benefits their pocketbooks and resumes and thats about it.

Yeah, man, I'm with you dude. Next time I see Sasha or that asshole Siegrist at the crag getting their pictures taken I'm gonna tell them to stay the fuck away from my SECRET crag!

[mssmith]

Personally I'd like to see a moritorium on all corporate media exposure on our climbing areas.

What gives you the exclusive right to climb at the red? Just cause you live closer and pull harder than people from ohio and michigan? All the climbing is located on either
1.) NFS land - national, not state or local forest service
2.) private landowners who graciously allow us access (THANK YOU!)
3.) the RRGCC who's mission statement describes the red as "a national treasure that are deserving of our best efforts to preserve for all Americans and for all climbers to enjoy, experience, and appreciate."

I can't imagine how frustrating it is to spend time and money developing a crag and then seeing it overrun but unfortunately that's just the way of the world.

[caribe]

Personally I'd like to see a moritorium on all corporate media exposure on our climbing areas.

What gives you the exclusive right to climb at the red

+1
fascism and autocracy rarely seek reason.

[pigsteak]

sure, keep em coming......

[cletuswilcox]

Wanting less media exposure has nothing to do with feelings of entitlement about crags at the RED. In fact its quite the opposite. Photographers/videographers and high profile professional climbers HAVE AN IMPACT ON CROWDS AT THE RED. Im sorry if this concept if offensive to some people but it is a fact. Limiting the amount of exposure the RRG receives on an annual basis is in my opinion an effort to limit climber impact on the RED. The way I see things being a visiting climber to an area and impacting that area via personal/professional media exposure and PROMOTION and then taking offense to any disapproving local opinion is in itself "entitlement". I do not feel entitled to anything at the RRG. This is why reducing my own personal impact is a priority. It is also why the idea of a lower-profile climbing community is an attractive option for me. As I said before this is my opinion and I definitely feel entitled to that.

Mikey Williams- From the looks of you my money would be on Sasha.

[whatahutch]

Capitalism. We have supply and demand. Right now the demand for Red sport routes is really really up. This creates pressure (more crowds, more publicity, more college kids at Miggies, more accidents) that needs to be released. The way to release that pressure (which will not solve all the problems with accidents, and land conservation issues) is to increase the supply.

Simple answer to me. We can't shoot ourselves in the feet by ruining access, blaming and trashing media, and closing walls, etc. That just makes the demand even worse. To release the pressure you increase the supply. More 5.8 to 5.10 walls need to be opened; another Motherload needs to be bolted. It is that simple. Decrease the crowds by spreading them out.

Like it or not, this is actually a good thing for the economy in Powell and Lee, and every other county including Fayette. I bet Miguel isn't complaining. When I started climbing he seemed to be doing decent business on the weekends, now I wish I could have seen this coming because I would own that Shell. Everyone complaining, I hate to be mean, but you all seem blind to the big picture. I am sorry, but the more climbers that come, the better. It might mean that more white-haired goldenrod gets squashed, but that family in Nada selling firewood for a little extra money to buy Christmas presents, are actually going to be able to buy presents. I grew up in a depressed rural area and I would have loved for there to be a "problem" like this in my hometown.

To fix the demand you increase supply. This means more people come. The more people come, the more money they bring, the more money, the more influence we as a community can have in shaping the economy, the culture, the politics, and the legal decisions that are made in the Red and surrounding areas. Seems like a win-win to me. If you want to believe in some sort of hippy utopia where Miggie's only slangs humus and tofu pizzas to two people, you and your belayer, and you wear leather soled climbing shoes to decrease your rubber footprint on the Red and the world, and you have no lines and no people at the crag with you than you can. However, you are only fooling yourself. The Red is physically located in The United States of America. We are a capitalist economy, and climbing is still a business. Right now business is good.

[pigsteak]

booyah..btw, the Shell was bought for 1.5 mil last year..you sure you want to buy that?

[EricDorsey]

RED. RED. RED.

Why do you have to yell RED at us everytime? Just curious as to why it gets all caps everytime you post...

And you can wish for less media exposure all you want but its a pretty unrealistic expectation. Almost as unrealistic as the red having no project/permadraws.

[dustonian]

I agree. Writing RED in all caps like that only encourages more people to come here and clog up locals' bad ass projects with their asinine stoogery.

(wink)

[nik]

just thought i'd give my opinion as an outsider (relative, at least).

i got into climbing in the last three years -- a bouldering gym in the south. moved to indiana and got into the gym scene there. loved indoor climbing. then, i discovered that there was this "world-class climbing destination" in kentucky. kentucky, i thought...that kentucky? the horses and basketball kentucky? yes, that kentucky. had absolutely no idea there were the type of geological formations that there are in the eastern part of the state. i also had very little understanding of the differences between sport and trad climbing, although i learned that pretty quickly. i began to notice people in my gym talking about going on trips and thought that i might like to do that at some point as i knew that i wanted to climb outdoors one day (although, in my head at the time that meant mostly big-wall climbing in the west...i was going to climb mountains!!!).

i signed up for a guided outdoor trip and off we went (to bruisebros and the shire to ham it up with all the other newbs, no doubt). i had the time of my life, as i know many of you can understand. fell in love with the red and have been back often in the last couple of years. i have also brought friends with me. people who i have brought into the sport and people who similarly love the red now.

i tell this story because i think it is probably fairly representative of the experiences of many climbers in this part of the country. you get into climbing through gyms, meet people who climb outside, and eventually make the leap. i also tell this story because at no time did i think about how many routes and crags there were at the red. i was told it was awesome, so i went. i can think of no logical way that increasing the amount of climbing areas at the red (through whatever mechanism -- cc purchasing new land, gaining access again to old lands, bolting on forest service land, or whatever) will increase the number of climbers who come. someone please draw that out for me. access to a new cliff is gained and some people in ohio...what, think their day at the crag will be less crowded? have they been waiting on new climbs because they have exhausted the hundreds and hundreds of existing routes?

i really don't think that the climbing community grows with the number of available routes to climb at the red. nor do i think that more people will come if more climbs go up. the increase in the # of climbers seems almost certainly independent of anything that happens at any one particular climbing area.