The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

[dollyjn]

Sorry to hear you are confused. Perhaps I'll see you sometime at the Rock House and we can cover it over a beer.
Ciao

[clif]

excellent, pm me.

Table 2. Outdoor Industry Association Recreation Participation Study
Activity Percentage of Population Total Number of Participants Approx. KY Participation
Freshwater Fishing 14.4 40,331,000 621,235
Day Hiking 11.6 32,511,000 500,437
Mountain Biking 2.7 7,592,000 116,481
Hunting 5.0 13,980,000 215,705
Horseback Riding (total) 3.9 10,816,000 168,250
Backpacking 2.8 7,867,000 120,795
Rock Climbing 0.8 2,288,000 34,513

my question is, do the 34,513 climbers in kentucky represent every climber in the world coming to the Red (duh) or are there really ~35,000 climbers living in kentucky? and what the fuck is a crowd?

more gold-
In some cases local users include people from larger cities such as Lexington, Covington, and Ashland Kentucky.

(this is from the Cave Run Lake Trails Environmental Assessment)

[clif]

I agree with Piggie, opening new cliffs can lead to more over crowding. Infrastructure like roads and parking lots needs to be addressed before more cliffs are open. IMO crowding is directly related to the amount of climbing available and more climbing means more climbers.

i've decided i can't accept rhunt and pigsteak finding common cause. Gentlemen, how is it that additional cliffs create more crowds but additional parking and roads don't?

Please, fight amongst yourselves, i have work. thanks.

[rhunt]

Is climbing more popular in the east just because, or is it more popular because its more accessible? What makes it more accessible - gyms, nearby climbing area, amount of moderate bolted sports routes, cheap lodging and eating, etc? If route develpment at the Red stopped back in 1995, would we be having these over crowding issue? Pigsteak and I would have these conversations back in the mid 90's wondering if climbing popularity was just a tempoary trend. It's my perspective and opinion that due to accessibility of climbing at the Red and the amount climbing gyms in nearby states, is why we have these over crowding issue. There are other minor contributing factors but I think accessiblity is a major contributing factor, which is why I think developing more areas before we can figure out how to manage what we have and the people visting is a bad idea.

[toad857]

i agree that accessibility is a major draw.

but opening up more crags isn't going to change the reputation of the red--it will still be #1 for lots of people. I do think that it will help thin people out.

[dustonian]

There are more climbers in the east because the population density is higher. It's not a difficult or mysterious concept.

[Andrew]

So you agree that it is not route development, but instead gyms and nearby cities that are the issue. Like I said before, random people are not going to take up climbing because Piggy bolted a new route. They are going to start climbing because of the gym or someone they know, and eventually end up at the red because it is close and has routes. Sorry, but the word is already out about the red so... new Crags will lessen crowding, not increase it.

[dollyjn]

More routes: Increase the need for parking, trailheads...etc.

It all depends on perspective:
Business owner: Would enjoy the revenue
Visitor/Vacationer: May not be aware of the impact of growth depending on visit frequency
Resident: Enjoys living in the Red and may not be too keen on the interruption of peace and quiet. It all depends on how far out the farm/property is!

[dustonian]

Well put Andrew. New climbers don't take up the "sport" in the gym and head out for their first 5.7 at Muir because they heard how bitchin' the Kipper's new route at the Pit is. You guys are employing some flawed logic there.

More routes: Increase the need for parking, trailheads...etc.

That is only true if the routes are published and "opened", dollyjn. And they won't be published until access is secured, parking lots built, & trails improved.

[toad857]

the word is already out about the red so... new Crags will lessen crowding, not increase it.

I agree.... people don't come here because of the shire, or chica bonita, or curbside. But they might take a day off from the lode or driveby to go visit some new crags.