reydelag wrote:"As far as I know the inexperienced leader, has not taken any responsibility for his role in this accident. He has not apologized for overestimating his abilities or being overconfident in his placements, or for talking somebody into climbing on his shitty placements, or for not admitting that he doesn't know how to properly lead trad. "
But, didn't the next guy 'climbing on the placed gear' have to climb past the placed gear to get up 60 ft either on TR or on lead? The 2nd climber would have looked at the gear. Was this another inexperienced trad leader? Was this another 'it's-not-a-problem--I'm-top-roped' over confidence issue?
- Didn't the second climber have any gear at all and wasn't he critical of the sketch placements??
Pumpkin wrote:Just goes to show that you don't need perma draws to have gumbys hurting themselves on rock climbs...
+1
Never climbed trad, other than followed on TR, because I don't trust myself to place gear. Same reason why I'm relunctant to climb on someone else's pre-placed draws.
So - climbers who are inexperienced at trad think you learn how to place gear on something easy, say around 5.10a. This really is stupid on a stick, isn't it? Reminds me of the one I read about a few years ago. A 5.10 gym climber decided to get into trad by starting on Touch and Go (5.eight) in Eldorado Canyon. He made it about 90 feet, fell, zippered, cratered, died. Back in the bad old days before cams, sticky rubber, climbing gyms, and sport climbing, climbers started out leading on truly easy stuff, bottom end 5th class. That way they could figure out the gear while they had very little chance of falling. As a result, almost nobody hit the ground while attempting their first fricking lead. It really is way past time the climbing community stopped putting up with this shit. I can't tell you how many times I called out gumbies when I saw them getting in over their head. Don't be shy people. Be an asshole if you have to, but when you see somebody headed for trouble call them out. You just might save a life.
LK Day wrote:So - climbers who are inexperienced at trad think you learn how to place gear on something easy, say around 5.10a. This really is stupid on a stick, isn't it? Reminds me of the one I read about a few years ago. A 5.10 gym climber decided to get into trad by starting on Touch and Go (5.eight) in Eldorado Canyon. He made it about 90 feet, fell, zippered, cratered, died. Back in the bad old days before cams, sticky rubber, climbing gyms, and sport climbing, climbers started out leading on truly easy stuff, bottom end 5th class. That way they could figure out the gear while they had very little chance of falling. As a result, almost nobody hit the ground while attempting their first fricking lead. It really is way past time the climbing community stopped putting up with this shit. I can't tell you how many times I called out gumbies when I saw them getting in over their head. Don't be shy people. Be an asshole if you have to, but when you see somebody headed for trouble call them out. You just might save a life.
+1 and more. Couldn't be stated better. Exactly the same thing seen here at local crags. Gym sport climbers think 5.10 is 'low end' and never try trad 5.4's as they should to start. Too many accidents due to this overconfidence and the fact so many of them have no current local role model or partners, or elders, who they would lower themselves to ask for trad assistance. Out they go and down they fall.
That is also why I don't let people use my rack, unless I know they can climb safely with it. Reydelag, remember this, the next time you decide to give somebody just enough rope to hang themselves. Not that you are fully to blame, but should shoulder a little of it.
It is only a matter of time before there is another fatality in the Red. It will likely be a head injury. We can't stop it. We could try to educate by getting a message out to the masses, but there is no mechanism to mentor every gym climber coming out.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
The leader must not fall. This should be your mantra for the first few years of trad climbing. If you don't think you could solo it, don't get on it.
Rock Wars is somewhat difficult to protect. The flake is thin (it will flex a little and spit out gear) and the gear is small. I would not like to fall on the gear anywhere low on that route and the heavier you are the scarier it would be. I saw someone crater on that a long time ago. The one piece they had in broke the rock but it slowed him down enough.
Who hasn't hung themselves out there by being in over there head?
Now you're talking about some govermental body!? You guys keep talking this shit and some politico is going to see a chance to take power and institute policy. You'd better think about what you're saying.
Climbing used to be about the misfits and the cocaine cowboys. Enjoying success in a world that they couldn't get comfortable in.
Now you get these soccer mom types who make sure that everybody gets a trophy and look for someone to sue when shit goes wrong.
The first thing you flat-landers did wrong was to leave Minnisota. You climb in some gym, then come down here and disrespect our rock. (I gota car, lets go race!)Now you're going to spread rumors about the guy who had the balls to climb the rock (on borrowed gear). Then the second fell on a piece,didn't inspect it, just kept climbing like he was at some flat-land gym.His fate was in his own hands!
Fuck you retards, why don't go play in traffic in Minisota!
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
I think the gyms have a responsibility that they may not be living up to. Is there a word of warning in the gyms to the effect that "What one experiences here does not prepare one for climbing in the outdoor environment. Critical skill sets that are not part of climbing in the gym are required. Climbing without these skill sets is likely to lead to injury and death"? If so, is there any emphasis placed on these warnings? Do the gyms provide access to training programs for those transitioning to climbing in a natural environment? Just wondering.
Last edited by LK Day on Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
