PDs at Lode

[clif]

flock this

[climb2core]

100-200+ are ready to ride, but access issues are sensitive and or the things you mentioned. Part of this group is the Arena/Oil Crack, and there are others with similar issues.

So, basically almost none can be opened until, mainly access issues are solved. And as Pig states.... it is just a temporary fix. I cannot see how we manage crowd control long-term by route development outpacing crowd growth. It is way easier to make 100 new sport climbers that want to go the Red, than it is to open 1 new crag.

But, I think I would truly understand better if you showed me all the secret crags...

[clif]

expanding roads is a bad idea then?

[lena_chita]

Opening all the cliff that the RRGCC seems to own the drip line, but not the bottom, plus the new/unpublished areas on the PMRP, would add about 200-300 (just a guess) new routes of all grades and quality. You don't think this would disperse the crowds. Some of this stuff is so good, you better believe people will be going like crazy.

I am not saying we should do this or can do this, but if we did...

What % of these 200-300 climbs are at crags that are mostly developed and ready to open?

Of this sub-group, what are the barriers to opening? ie land rights to access, parking infra-structure, trail development, etc.

And how many of these crags comparable to the Lode/Darkside/Purgatory/Bob Marley?

Putting things in perspective, this whole PD and fixed draw storm revolves around a minority of climbs at the Red (5.12 and above) and a relatively small fraction of total climbers who come to the Red to climb those routes (less than 20% of total climber visitors by my very approximate guesstimate).

So opening up another Muir Valley worth of climbing sounds awesome. But unless the new fairyland happens to include the equivalents of Midnight Surf and Sanctuary, the crowds at the Lode will not be thinned much.

I have to admit, Elodie's pictures make Brightside look pretty nice.

[Andrew]

so will opening more routes really disperse the crowds, or will it draw even more people?

"oh look, the Red has 2800 climbs now"

there are plenty of open routes as it is...problem is everyone wants to flock to the main 3-5 areas where everyone else is also flocking.

Sorry piggy, but if you bolt a new route it is not going to get my neighbor to start climbing. No matter how good your routes are.

[climb2core]

expanding roads is a bad idea then?

Expanding roads, developing crags, and gaining access are all good things. BUT, don't do it with intention that you are going to solve crowds long term.

[dustonian]

so will opening more routes really disperse the crowds, or will it draw even more people?

"oh look, the Red has 2800 climbs now"

there are plenty of open routes as it is...problem is everyone wants to flock to the main 3-5 areas where everyone else is also flocking.

Sorry piggy, but if you bolt a new route it is not going to get my neighbor to start climbing. No matter how good your routes are.

especially those dirty slabs!

[Andrew]

expanding roads is a bad idea then?

Expanding roads, developing crags, and gaining access are all good things. BUT, don't do it with intention that you are going to solve crowds long term.

But if we don't...

[climb2core]

If we don't...

The crowds would grow for a while. Then the crushers would get sick of nothing new for them to do and they would leave. Others would get sick of the crowds and eventually it would reach a steady sate... of course IMO and mainly talking out of my ass.

And I would have to learn how to send in July and August.

[dustonian]

The Red is only unbearably crowded at name-brand sport crags in March and October really. If you don't like it, climb somewhere else during that time & give a hand with trails, picking up poo and garbage the rest of the year. Problem solved.

This is sort of like going to Yosemite in September and complaining because the Nose or Zodiac is crowded. In fact, there was a big fixed junk "clean-up" on Zodiac about 5 or 6 years ago reminiscent of the PD clamor... of course now it's all re-fixed again with junk. Climbing is little messy unfortunately. But if visual impact is one of the main points of contention here, then the CREW also needs to power wash off all that chalk and institute a chalk (Tali)ban.