PDs at Lode

Posts here will show on front page

Moderator: terrizzi

Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

dustonian
Posts: 3089
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by dustonian »

stix wrote:i wasn't out at the lode the day they stripped the gear, but i'm pretty sure hughes took some shit down and (this is a total assumption) sean stripped draws i bet. any bandwagon to jump on will do i suppose. i'm sure there were all kinds of folks out there helping out and not a kamikaze crew in the darkness. like everything else here it's not so black and white as everyone wants to make it out to be.
also, i'm fairly certain they cleaned these routes in the middle of the day and not at night.
Yah, I know "Night Crew" was just a joke, I like the image of one crew leaving for the day and another coming in with other goals in mind. Night Crew typically gets paid more anyway! ;) Matt especially was a huge help on this project so if he thinks PDs on the Undertow are bad too then that's cool, I don't have any beef with any of those guys really, just the style in which it was done was a bit hasty.

The competing "rigging goals" of the CREWS are another layer of irony and comedy to relish. From a climbing standpoint I could care less, it just sucks people are going to be bailing directly through the new bolts now :(
Last edited by dustonian on Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
toad857
Posts: 1691
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:31 pm

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by toad857 »

RRO wrote:Trust me, the sentences I am fixing to type sound as absurd and petty in my head as they should to you in print. Over the last few days I have been asked by the guilty parties of all sides of the latest round of drama going on around the Red , as to just what my opinion on the matter is.

First, why in the hell would my opinion matter ? I cant climb anytime soon because of injuries, I did not frequent the place that is in question. Out of the 12 or so years I have been climbing in the Red I have climbed with as many people as I can count on my 19 digits, so finding places that are not crowded have never been an issue to me. I have been a strong proponent of keeping sport climbs safe, trad lines spicy as nature allows, trying to take care of the land that surrounds the cliffs more than the goofy lines on the wall and a huge supporter of if you aint hurting or bothering me I dont give a shit what you do or how you do it.

Second, the actual land that is in question is private land. The land owner has final say, period.... Let this be another lesson showing that no matter how much money you raise for a private area, no matter how many trails days you have, how cool the area is, how amped the owner of the land may be at the time or how big of a johnson you have while sending your proj....that can all change in a blink of an eye. The owner can close it at their will, they can strip the bolts, they can strip the draws, they can hang big long pink draws, they can use aluminum foil anchor bolts, you will become old and it wont work no more and they could make you rappel on a strippers pole if they so desire. The point Im trying to make is that we cannot as a community ever count on private land to be there or to stay as it currently is. Muir, Torrent, Zoo, Motherload and may I mention Roadside are subject to the owners discretion and mood at anytime.

The answer to the current problem is easy, on Dario’s land its Dario’s decision. If he decides to leave it in the communities hands, then so be it, lets hope we are able to find a happy gray area that always exists. But in the end even if that does happen, he could change his mind at any second and in my very strong opinion has the right to do so. The only land that cannot be taken away from us is the PMRP and that has its own issues we are all aware of, but this is not the place to discuss that. Just remember throughout this rant that climbing on any land is a privilege and is not a God given right of this country and our founding fathers, treat it as so, it could be taken away tomorrow...

But back to the question as a whole. I was asked my opinion, and generally I give my opinion even if not asked. So I broke down and un-retired myself from the Internet climbing scene I once was completely immersed in but had to step away from to avoid drama such as this. I dont do things in moderation, so its either turned off or Im all in...So I did what any respectable shit talker would do, I opened up a few cold ones, made sure I was safe as possible and dove right in reading the rants and getting my blood boiling at all sides with each post I read.

At first I was thinking, yeah, same arguments, mostly the same people, not worth my time since the answer to the exact question at hand has already been answered, its Dario’s land.....

But then as I pondered on the issue it quickly became apparent that the acts were touching a much larger issue and in all reality is just the straw that broke the camels back. The Red and its areas are getting loved to death and everyone reading this or even thinking of reading this is to blame. You should punch yourself now...hard and in the nuts(or other sensitive areas as required by nature)

As a community and an area we have been growing for years and years. No one has written a book on how to develop a sustainable recreation area such as we are blessed with and whats even crazier is that literally the entire climbing world is watching what we do and in all reality, coming to see how we do it. Not only do we have the visitors seeing and coming but we have every agency that can help or hurt us at a local, state and national level seeing what and how we react. How can we fight as a user group to not only keep areas open but ask for money to help preserve/repair areas, request other private owners keep their areas open/open new ones and so on if we cant find two legs to stand on out of many.

There is no right and wrong answer, in the end both sides are trying to protect the area they love and both groups have had a huge hand in creating the monster thats literally eating its own foot.

I have very strong agreements and disagreements with both sides. I am very proud of the people that cared enough about the area to raise money , do a shit ton of hard work and do what they truly thought was a good thing for everyone involved. But, I am also proud of the people that stood up for what they believe in and in my opinion were not only making a statement about the perma draws but were also raising the issue of the bigger problem that we are facing as an area...loving it to death with no end in sight. But again, I do truly believe both groups were doing what they think were right but both could have been handled differently and created less drama.

We have two very black and white groups that need to find the gray area in the middle, which I think will happen as it has with all the other issues we have faced as a community. One thing I do feel very strong about is as an area we have to find that stopping point where we put our foot down and say enough is enough, this is rock climbing, you can get hurt, you will get your feelings smashed and in general the sport needs to buck the current trend of everyones a winner and return to a little bit of its roots and weed out the people that really just dont belong in the air and out of the gym.

Within our type of community we have extremely strong minded individuals that are very outspoken , opinionated and in all reality very egotistical. When I first started climbing and to this day, the biggest draw , well other than being in nature, is the F'you attitude that once was apart of almost every climber I know. Thats been lost to the lower the challenge to the lowest common denominator and everyone gets a star mentality of our current society.

A strong statement was made by the removal of the draws , but a strong statement was also made by hanging them to begin with. Its like that old saying, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A simple blog post complaining about the issue would and has in the past proven ineffective. The actual act has brought a lot of influential minds to the table that may have not been brought together any other way. Could it have been handled differently, yes absolutely, both the hanging and the removal could have. But since it wasnt its how we get past that will either show how we have grown as an area or how we have regressed...

From her on we will try to ignore the obvious answer to this particular question, once again being Dario owns the land , and act as if it was open land where we as a group should be able to self govern, possibly touching on more than the perma draw question and hitting what in my opinion has everyone chasing tail and riled up.

As a route developer and speaking for other developers we have had as much gear taken off routes as was removed from the load just in the last few years, why doesnt that make a big stink ? I know, not really the issue at hand but what Im getting at is from the standpoint of knowing exactly how it feels to get your hard work and expensive gear yanked. If the group keeps the gear knowing all that gear was funded by the community they are stealing and any point they had tried to make is null and void. Return the gear fellas...

Another thing that needs to be made certain. All climbs on Forest Service land cannot have fixed draws. If there are still routes with fixed draws , they need to be taken down. Black/White...

Now to get the opinion of perma draws out of the way. I wont waste time by beating around the bush and trying to sound like a politician. I am not a fan of them at all. Of course I have never been a project climber and focused mainly on moving up through the grades and generally being able to do whatever grade I was on at the time in a few goes. I also chase choss and slabs, so really , my opinion dont count. But with that said I also see a gray area as normally exists. I can admit that some routes need a fixed cleaning biner for pure safety and convenience sake but other than that draws need to be hung as you go, learn how to use a stick clip or know how to get out of a situation or better yet how to read the routes to limit being in over your head before you leave the ground.

Also, call it selfish but I do not want to see all that tat on the walls. We already have chalk, denuded bases, dogs everywhere, radios, colored chalk, people from ohio and so on and so on to deal with. I personally and selfishly do not like seeing it and go climbing purely to be in nature, basically, its annoying to me. But again, I go where there are no people, so its usually not an issue.

When I was just starting climbing having all climbs perma drawed would have kicked ass at that time. But looking back , Im glad they were not there, it taught me how to be responsible for myself. And now I would hate to see this spread to all outdoor climbs and we all know once the body hits the slip and slide it cant stop till it hits the end. So why even take that first sprint when the end is a brick wall ?

With that said, I dont climb at the load or on steep routes. My guess is every single person that took the draws down have clipped fixed gear at the load and other places.....if only because its almost always been there. So in knowing each of you and knowing you dont want to be a hypocrite, I ask where is the line drawn ? I would hope your going to practice what you preach and continue to hang your own as you go, every single one... Its like chopping a route, if you do chop one, you better chop that shit on lead or your being like that dad that says dont smoke as hes packing his box of reds. But if the folks that took the draws down continue to clip draws in place I would have to ask the logic behind letting the inevitable cheap ass leaver draws stay up tied to sun bleached webbing and not replacing them for extended times with good gear. Again, I dont do steep and have already made it apparent, I dont like or see the need in 99% of the fixed draws, so in all reality I dont have a dog in the fight other than aesthetics and access issues . But there is a gray area and needs to be found.

To me this last act is bringing to the table much bigger issues than whether perma draws are on a route or not. The issues that need brought up and figured out is how as a community we are going to sustainably develop/manage the area to handle the traffic its going to get. The words been out there, the people are coming, we can sit back and talk about the old time(even though most of you that are doing this were not here then), who to blame(we all are, every single one of us, not even worth arguing) or we can react by putting action to words(which was actually done by the hanging and removal crew)....

Let us use this incident as the catalyst that allows us to work together to find the happy medium and apply our energies to things that are not only affecting us as a user group but greatly affecting the lands under our feet that we have all proven we love to death. Make sure the trails we use are sustainable, make sure the bases of our climbs can handle the impact before you bolt the line, if it cant either fix it first or maybe that route dont need bolted. Limit the number of moderate climbs at an area, if a parking lot is full go to another area, limit your group size. Speak up if people are doing things that will jeopardize the access to the area , be the asshole we all know you can be. And so on and so on...

I could write ten more pages on the issues we are having as an area and how I think we need to deal with them but Im tired, the buzz is wearing off and I have to get ready to go to a meeting tomorrow with other land managers, the Forest Service and many State and National agencies about recreation areas, its abuses and the exact problems we are trying to deal with here on our own land.

I was asked my opinion, I gave it. In the end whats more important than what I or anyone thinks is if we can use this problem to get stronger as a community or if we are just going to turn it into who has the biggest johnson and in the end just make us all look like idiots. Use the energy that has been created to help, cause if you dont, your as big of the problem as the people you are whining about.....
wow, what a long post.
toad857
Posts: 1691
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:31 pm

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by toad857 »

dustonian wrote:
cletuswilcox wrote:...Peter McDermott, Zac Sands, Dave Rowland, Chris Snyder, Dave Scott and myself (all of whom were a part of removing perma-draws from the undertow)...
It would have been super sweet if they could have removed the old bolts on Harvest and patched holes on other routes as they scurried by and stripped the draws on every route, but whatev. There are even patching materials stashed out there! I also wonder if they left Andrew and Mike's working lines or dropped them and took them to Miguel's or what.
No shit!! This deserves to be said again.

These dudes are retarded if they think those draws aren't goin right back up there. I give it 1 year, tops. What a waste.
dustonian
Posts: 3089
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by dustonian »

Dario doesn't own the Undertow... I wish he did.
RRO
Posts: 1949
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:18 am

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by RRO »

it was long. i definitely didnt proclaim to have the answer or write anything profound, if i were me, i would just skip reading the whole post and topic. and since i am me will be skipping back out of the interweb drama circle jerk. i hope the gray area is found...
http://www.redriveroutdoors.com

If you need to contact me , email me. Less Internet, less stress
THB
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:26 pm

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by THB »

pigsteak wrote:you make the point perfectly vertical1....these folks are in waaaay over their heads, and are the cause, not the solution.
so i fell on my project and i need to boink... i'm in way over my head?!?! news to me... i've been to the anchors, i've done all the moves, i'm just trying to link it all up for the PINK POINT send!

PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT: If you don't flash a route or onsight a route, you are in way over your head!

(again, kipp, i'm just playin devil's advocate here, i've argued the other side of this one too... i was complaining a few months back about people getting on tissue tiger and not even making it to the 'india hold' crux, and i felt that they were in over their head and they shouldn't have been getting on tissue tiger... but who am i to tell someone they aren't allowed to try a route...)
User avatar
jimmy
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:15 am

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by jimmy »

dustonian wrote:I am concerned now gumballs & Euro visitors will start bailing directly through the new glue-ins on the Undertow and wear through the stock at crux bolts.
Now that you mention it, that worries me too. Since the bolts are rounded and don't have a hard edge, I can certainly foresee people lowering directly through the bolt. Over time, that's not gonna be good.

Let's come to a community consensus - if we see anyone doing this, then we make a point of publicly humiliating them.
dustonian
Posts: 3089
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by dustonian »

jimmy wrote: Let's come to a community consensus - if we see anyone doing this, then we make a point of publicly humiliating them.
Yes, I agree... this is one thing we are all good at!

Definitely we need to monitor the SSGIs for wear now (ugh) and leave a QL or PD if bailing on a given bolt becomes commonplace (ugh).
Last edited by dustonian on Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cletuswilcox
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:12 am

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox »

Green3- some answers for your questions:

1.) Will removing the perma-draws from the lode reduce traffic at the crag? - If some people are climbing at the motherlode for the convience of the fixed draws and that is a determining factor of whether they will climb there or not then yes it will decrease traffic at the motherlode. I'd like to reference an earlier post by "Cinnamon" where he said he was planning a trip to the undertow to have fun on 5.12+/5.13-. Evidently he will not be making that trip becaue there are no fixed draws.

2.) Does removing the perma-draws really change the "types" of climbers climbing at the motherlode? - As far as physical capabilities go I don't think anyone can say for sure. Personally I would be hesitant to hang draws on routes I was not sure I could summit (fixed cleaning draws and stick clips does make it easier for people to attempt routes that are beyond their normal range of difficulty). However, climbing at a crag without fixed gear does require a basic understanding of how to hang and clean draws. It wouold seem to me that having no fixed gear at the very least is a strong deterent to those climbers who do not have these fundamental skills. On a side note the routes on the GMC wall will be stripped of their fixed gear as well. For me removing the perma-draws had nothing to do with excluding any user group based on the difficulty of routes they are climbing or as any broad solution to the many problems facing the local climbing community here at the RRG. It had everything to do with addressing the issue of having fixed gear on easily cleanable routes at the motherlode.

3.) How will enforcing this ethic happen? - This is a question that has come up several times on this thread. Honestly I'm surprised at how many people view this as a considerable amount of work. If draws are hung on a route at the motherlode for an extended period of time (I would think that more than a couple weeks) it is simply a matter of climbing the route and cleaning it. I can't imagine how identifying what draws need to be removed could be too difficult especially with no fixed gear. I would hope after some time people will begin to realize that leaving draws on a route at the motherlode for weeks at a time is an unaccepted ethic and will stop doing it.

Dustin- your fixed ropes are still hanging on the undertow they were not touched. Also there was no "flurry" in which the perma-draws were removed. Every route that was stripped was done so thoughtfully and carefully. Every fixed cleaning draw(s) were placed intentionally so as to ensure the safety of the swing and also to ensure that the swinging climbers would be well away from the last surviving vegetation at the base of the cliff. I'd also like to reiterate a point Dario made on his post in case people missed it. Dario climbed at the undertow the day after the draws were removed and encountered two climbers who had never been to the undertow before. They were unaware that the routes at the undertow had previously been fixed with perma-draws. They were very impressed by the ease with which the fixed cleaning draws allowed them to clean the routes they climbed.

I WILL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME. THE PERMA-DRAWS REMOVED FROM THE UNDERTOW WERE NOT STOLEN. THEY ARE ORGANIZED BY ROUTE AND ARE AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST (THE DRAWS ARE CURRENTLY AT MIGUEL'S THOUGH THE VENTURAS HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR REMOVAL AND WANT TO REMAIN COMPLETELY UNINVOLVED). THE CLIMBTEK DRAWS WILL REPLACE EITHER SHOTTY ANCHORS AT THE UNDERTOW OR WORN GEAR FROM THE MADDNESS CAVE.
User avatar
climb2core
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:04 pm

Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core »

jimmy wrote:Let's come to a community consensus - if we see anyone doing this, then we make a point of publicly humiliating them.
How about publicly educate them the 1st time. Then if it happens again, publicly cut their rope.
Post Reply