PDs at Lode

[THB]

I like Caribe's thought. Let the FA or the property owner determine if their line is eligible for steel PD's.

OR

Determine by steepness...
Very Steep = full equipped
Moderate Steep = Cleaning biners
Exceptions = Dangerous draws to hang determined on case by case basis.

Sounds reasonable... create and maintain a list that gets stashed on rrc.com and is accessible to the public. get a concensus amongst the locals to agree with what routes get equipped and which ones don't... and have support from the locals to educate visiting climbers about the ethics that are the current norm in the rrg. ("current norm" meaning whatever concensus is reached... not the "current norm" in the status quo)

[Meadows]

the rrgcc wants to take the time during their meeting to work through this issue, especially since its not on rrgcc land. i guess that's up to them.

I know they are aware of it which is great, but this does not fall under the RRGCC mission statement. Although, Rick and Paul would look hot in a police uniforms. Real hot.

[Pumpkin]

I like Caribe's thought. Let the FA or the property owner determine if their line is eligible for steel PD's.

OR

Determine by steepness...
Very Steep = full equipped
Moderate Steep = Cleaning biners
Exceptions = Dangerous draws to hang determined on case by case basis.

Just make sure people know not to steal the cleaning biners!

[climb2core]

I like Caribe's thought. Let the FA or the property owner determine if their line is eligible for steel PD's.

OR

Determine by steepness...
Very Steep = full equipped
Moderate Steep = Cleaning biners
Exceptions = Dangerous draws to hang determined on case by case basis.

Just make sure people know not to steal the cleaning biners!

Cleaning biners would be fixed steel draws, not easily mistaken for booty (hopefully). But it would be nice to have some accepted demarcation on cleaning biners in general... idk, a piece of Red or Brown tape on it?

[THB]

Good news! The mega-long draws up high threw me.

After JM did the FA on The Madness, and Jean-Paul Finney got the second, I wanted to try it. Had to hang the draws. Cleaned them at the end of the day and hung them again next time I went out. Not even cave routes were bolted with perma-draws in mind.

Toy, I thought that you did the FA of The Madness??

Hey Toy, maybe you should put out an online tutorial about how to hang draws while leading and how to clean them when you're done, because it seems like everyone is baffled by how to do this... make sure to include how to clean draws from the cave because i think everyone is really baffled by that one... as i recall, "Michelle, do I really need to explain why we didn't strip the cave"...maybe my quote is not exactly correct, but you get my point...

[climb2core]

Hey, my apologies....

I did some more research on The CREW. They are legit!

Concerned
Resources and
Environmental
Workers

http://www.thecrew.org/

[dustonian]

Where was this bad-ass, highly ethical CREW when Andrew & Mike, Dave L, Roger, Matt, Sean and I were out busting ass on the Undertow, sweatin our ballz off and developing heinous cases of gig-butt & sunburn on the burliest days of summer?? I still have eczema from all that epoxy!

[pigsteak]

...And yes I will continue to strip draws, as much as I possibly can. SIEG HEIL!

Get caught entering onto my property to steal permadraws that I paid for (or were donated) and I'll do my best to put you in jail.

big difference here Rick...we do not even know whose land we are dealing with.
you have rules at Muir..the Lode is the wild west. seems to me we would all agree that all draws, even perma draws are abandoned gear. shoot, the same folks who want all the fixed steel draws have no problem taking booty biners off lesser climbs...double standard perhaps?

[dustonian]

I can't speak for everyone Kipp, but I for one do not have any "ethical" problem with permadraws on easier routes, especially if they're steep (though of course it's a waste of resources on easy vertical/slightly overhanging routes). But I am OK with fewer permadraws on the Undertow too, although I do feel they have a place on megapopular routes like Chainsaw and on long 30-40 degree routes like Resurrection through Beavis. There are also some clips on Convicted that I personally can't imagine hanging a draw on, but whatev, I'm weak.

I would surmise that someone who supports 100% PDs on the Undertow would have no problem with PDs on other walls of any grade, but that's just a hypothesis. To speak of "ethics" and "purity" in sport climbing is kind of laughable, that train left the station decades ago. That said, I am all for picking up trash, keeping the trails nice, being friendly at the crag, packing out poo if you really have to go, and climbing elsewhere when it's packed.

[pigsteak]

well said Dustin. Like I said early on, I honestly do not care either way, but everyone is ganging up on the "crew" and they do have some major valid points....it has gotten our attention and now we get to talk.