PDs at Lode

[dustonian]

Good news! The mega-long draws up high threw me.

[krampus]

can seasonal residents call themselves locals?

[graniteclimber]

Some great posts by Dustin.

Some suggestions... you guys have a great community down there, organizing the Fest, raising money, rebolting w/ glue in, stinging window smashers, etc. Think about that before you mess it up.

Maybe once you get that PMRP mortgage paid, maybe put in some pit toilets before you go looking to buy more land. There's nowhere to poop down there, people are going to go somewhere, fake locals and visitors alike.

Maybe don't hate the visitors. Part of being a climber is travelling the country/world and checking out amazing places. The Red is one of these. I hope you guys get to climb in Yosemite, Joshua Tree, Smith, the Creek, Rifle, Maple, etc.

If you really want to do something about an eyesore and the overcrowding, chop that field of fixed tents behind that pizza shack!

[Cinnamon]

Im not surprised to hear about something like this coming out of the Red.

Im from the East, but Ive been living out in Colorado for the last few years. Ive climbed in a lot of areas out West, and in a few other countries too. Ive got to say, the folks that hang around the Red and consider themselves locals/regulars/badasses at Miguel's are the rudest group of people Ive encountered in rock climbing EVER! The glares, the rudeness, its unreal. I dont know these people personally, maybe the folks I saw were a completely different group...I dont know.

All you guys think that outsiders are the problem and the Boulderites are gonna screw everything up...Surprise surprise! The real assholes are the crew from Miguels!(Im not talking about Miguel or his family).

This act is a perfect example of why I hate the people at the Red. You wait until the middle of peak Fall season to strip down permadraws from a community fundraiser. What a bunch of pieces of shit!

[dustonian]

I love all the visitors that come here!! It feels almost like traveling sometimes, something I don't have much time for right now unfort. And after living in Yosemite for a couple years, nothing ever really feels that crowded here... if the lot looks bad, go elsewhere.

[lena_chita]

It's a good thing there are no PDs at Solar Collector, it's really helped to keep the overcrowding/trash/poop/noise/erosion/dog problems down there. Oh wait.

That's what was just about to post. No fixed draws at Solar Collector, but the crowds there get just as insane as the Undertow wall. If anything, even more insane, because the base is so small.

No fixed draws at the Zoo, yet the last two weekends there were people waiting several deep on each and every route.


At both of the above crags, I've witnessed packed-crazy weekends that were, nevertheless, running smoothly, and I witnessed packed-crazy weekends that were a complete nightmare.

Things were running smoothly when the first person to climb each route, whatever it was, would leave his/her draws on for everyone to climb on for the rest of the day. There were some exchanges of draws, some cleaning on lowering, switching draws, etc. but in general, the attitude was, sure, go ahead, you guys can climb on my draws, just get them back to me in the evening. oh, and also, while some people might have been dogging the routes, everyone looked like they had at least a reasonable chance of climbing a route clean.

Things quickly went to shit if there was even just one group that could not easily get to the anchors, yet persisted in trying (which is more likely to happen when there is a vested interest in finishing the climb in order to not leave the draws, whether they are the climber's own draws, or the draws of the person who kindly allowed you to climb on theirs -- the group I am thinking of got on Lynx Jinx at the Zoo, clearly over their head, as they had admitted, but they had to get those draws, so two hours later they were still at it...)





To me the bottom line is that fixed draws at one segment of the wall at one particular crag (e.i. Undertow at the Lode) are a very minor contributor to overcrowding of the Lode in particular, and the Red in general. I don't like the fact that draws were removed because it seems like there is no united opinion in the community. One side is raising money and equipping the routes with perma-draws, the other side is stripping them. It is inefficient, it creates more tension in the community, and it does nothing to address the underlying problems of crowds.

For better or worse, the trend at the Red, and at other popular climbing destinations had been to have the draws hanging, just like there is a general trend that the draws are left hanging on climbs in 5.12 and above range. This was not an executive decision of a small group, this was a slow development of the climbing community in general.

You can't just go and arbitrarily decide that this segment of the wall will henceforth have no more draws hanging overnight (where is the border, between the cave and the Undertow, btw? Does Tuna Town still have draws? Harvest?) because some people got together and decided that this would be the way to relieve crowding (so presumably they can still climb on their projects, because their projects are too steep for anyone sane to suggest that the draws should be removed there, too, but enjoy less crowding).

If there is a general change of attitude EVERYWHERE at the Red, fine. if this is just one facet of less littering, less impact-- O.K. otherwise, it seems wrong.

I admit I almost want to go to the Lode this weekend now, just to see. My saner partners will probably prevail, but my prediction is that if the crowd at the Lode is any less this weekend, it is because everyone got a word of what a shit-show it has been for the past several weekends, and not because of the draws. LOL, there might even be a backlash, if every one of those guys who thinks that lack of draws will keep the crowds away will now gleefully go to the Lode to enjoy their solitude.

[Toy]

Good news! The mega-long draws up high threw me.

After JM did the FA on The Madness, and Jean-Paul Finney got the second, I wanted to try it. Had to hang the draws. Cleaned them at the end of the day and hung them again next time I went out. Not even cave routes were bolted with perma-draws in mind.

[climb2core]

We need a climbing competency test to climb at the Lode. You must have sent one of the three the softest 12 in the Red to climb there.

Check your Grip
Ro Shampo (sorry, if you already haven't sent, your SOL)
Wild Yet Tasty

Now would be a good time to digress to an endless debate about the softest 12's at the Red.

[dustonian]

After JM did the FA on The Madness, and Jean-Paul Finney got the second, I wanted to try it. Had to hang the draws. Cleaned them at the end of the day and hung them again next time I went out. Not even cave routes were bolted with perma-draws in mind.

Huh, for some reason I thought Bill Ramsey had written something to the opposite effect recently... maybe that was just on Transworld?

Cool history!

[THB]

but again,, those in favor of Pd's on the undertow, do you have a problem with playground and volunteer being fully equipped?

not at all... that'd be fine by me, i won't be the one equipping those areas, but if someone wanted to, have at it...

"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it." That's a GK Chesterton quote... and I think it applies in this situation to both sides of the arguement.

I'm not for or against perma-draws... but I am for helping to make the rrg as safe of a climbing destination as possible. I know that climbing is inherently dangerous, but you don't see everyone going around equipping sport routes with 2" bolts, because that wouldn't be safe in the rrg, we use longer bolts here because they are safer. Just as equipping a route with steel perma-draws is a safer solution than leaving someones aluminum mank hanging up on a route. If the community can come to a concensus one way or another, then that's the position that I take. And when I say community, I mean the people living in lexington and the people living at miguel's, and those living in louisville, and cincinnati, and anyone else that considers the rrg their "home crag". I'm proud to say that the rrg is my home crag, but not when childish crap like this is going on. It is a shame, but it does seem that the actions of stripping the lode has split the community, and that's the biggest problem.

"United we stand, divided we fall"...let's make a decision and all support it.

On a side note... If you think the rrg is at capacity and you want to do something to help that problem, then stop climbing here. But I'm not going to stop climbing here, and I wouldn't expect you to either, but I'm no more worthy to climb here than you are or than the person visiting on the west coast that's just here for a week or 2. So, instead of taking preventative measures to decrease the traffic (because I don't think we can stop the traffic, if you wanted to stop or prevent the flow of traffic then go back in time 30 years and stop sport climbing from becoming so popular), let's take actions that are an intervention to help control the traffic and make this place as safe as possible.

On another side note... I can see how it would be interesting if you were around when there was a divide between sport and trad climbing... now it's all happening again except within the sport climbing community... shame, shame...