PDs at Lode

[dustonian]

The Undertow and more importantly the base of the cliff, parking, and the approach trail are not owned by climbers, but rather tolerant and hands-off Beattyville folk (given recent trends this could be construed as a good thing). Stripping the "Ventura side" of the Lode is whatever, but anyone who says hanging and cleaning draws on the Undertow from Resurrection leftwards isn't going to suck ass and take forever hasn't climbed (or replaced bolts) on those routes lately, or is just in denial. Guaranteed to be littered with aluminum tat after one or two seasons, especially once the Permadraw Police follow the warm/cool weather elsewhere. This isn't the first time someone tried to "clean up" the wall.

It's hilarious everyone has been "punished" by a couple of angry twenty-somethings who decided the crag is too crowded during prime season--which, ironically, is really the only time they are around the Red much. Outside of March and October the crag is quite peaceful and relatively empty considering its quality and reputation. This kind of unilateral action is arrogant wankery in my book. How about volunteering to replace old bolts instead of taking a public pee-pee all over the place?

[tutugirl]

I will not be able to attend the meeting not because I don't want to but I have to deliver a wedding cake in Dayton OH at 6PM, this will make it impossible to be there on time...I will leave ASAP in hopes to at least catch the end.

Also if you "the crew" thought that by taking the draws is going to avoid people taking so much time in routes they can't do or not getting on the route because they can't place the draws ... you have never seen someone pre-place each draw with a stick clip...much more time consuming as well as safety issue and you will not be able to take their stick clips away...

[dustonian]

Miguel's on a Saturday night... are you guys crazy?? That's about as nuts as going to the Lode on an October weekend...

[Zach Romero]

Things really escalate quickly in the world of online climbers. This will be my first post and hopefully my last. My name is Zach Romero, the same as my username, I'm not hiding behind a vail of anonymity like most. I was also among the "crew" of draw stripping "nazis". I'm not going to give anyone the pleasure of totally explaining myself on a stupid online forum. If you want to talk to me face to face I'm totally for it. If you want to find me it's not difficult. I never felt entitled to strip the draws as many people have said and I don't consider myself a local even though I've spent the majority of the last two years of my life climbing exclusively in the RED. In those two years I've fallen in love with the place and the community. This is were my draw stripping motivation has come from. I'm saddened by the state of the RED and it's decline in the two years I've been climbing here. In MY opinion the Gorge is at capacity, it can't handle many more climbers and especially unaware, irresponsible ones. There's nothing worse to me than showing up to the cliff and seeing the destruction of the place you love at the hands of uneducated, uncaring "climbers". Perma-draws are proven to attract this type of climber, period. The term climber used to be synonymous with preservation and leave no trace, this is no longer true. By stripping the perma-draws I firmly believe that the Lode will be less crowded, see less of an impact and more importantly set a precedent for the future. And yes I will continue to strip draws, as much as I possibly can. SIEG HEIL!

[dustonian]

Perma-draws are proven to attract this type of climber, period.

Where's the data, Zach? Unfortunately people love to stick clip and dog their way up routes without draws too (as Margarita pointed out, and she definitely knows what she's talking about when it comes to long-term trends in climbing). The people are not going away just because you guys took it upon yourself to strip a bunch of steel draws. If you really want to help you should volunteer to rebolt with me and Andrew, or better yet with the RRGCC or Friends of Muir Valley and get involved with educating the hordes of climbers that are here in spring and fall when you and your bros roll into town. The PDs were put up by a consensus of local climbers and RRG regulars last year to rid the wall of sharp aluminum, a solid majority reflected in this poll.

Thanks for the energy and enthusiasm though, too many do too little.

Cheers
Dustin

[goodguy]

So did you throw the draws in the trash or what? Lots of money went to these as well, if someone stole my shit I would beat their ass.

[climb2core]

I never felt entitled to strip the draws ... This is were my draw stripping motivation has come from.

You obviously DO feel entitled to strip draws. You and your crew have elected yourself stewards of the Red. While I believe your intent is good I believe your logic is critically flawed and your actions irresponsible and in-effective.

In MY opinion the Gorge is at capacity, it can't handle many more climbers and especially unaware, irresponsible ones. There's nothing worse to me than showing up to the cliff and seeing the destruction of the place you love at the hands of uneducated, uncaring "climbers". Perma-draws are proven to attract this type of climber, period.

What evidence do you have support this theory? Have you ever been to Bruisebrothers or Practice wall? Are all those walls covered in PDs? You logic is not correct. Removing the PD's will not remove the uneducated and uncaring climber. They will still show up and hang dog "your" warm-ups. Only through education will we have better caretakers of the land.

And yes I will continue to strip draws, as much as I possibly can.

Start and finish with your project, please. Without direction from the land owner, this is where your authority begins and ends.

My name is Ian Kirk. I can't make this Saturday, but I am pretty sure the community of the Red will choose a safer and more well thought out plan for management of climbing impact. I would expect you and your Nazi CREW to respect the educated voice of reason and experience.

[Zach Romero]

Dustin,
It's simple, the data is right in front of you, I shouldn't have to explain myself. Basically your whole response is way off base. Do some fact checking on what I have done and will continue to do before you act self righteous and demeaning.
-Zach

[goodguy]

Demeaning??

Thanks for stealing the draws dude. Next time do a little bit of research on the front end. Oh ya, stop stealing gear.

[Artsay]

I won't be at the meeting Saturday night because I've learned it's pointlesss to speak to and have an affect on angry people. The actions made by this "CREW" were selfish, elitist, and done in total disregard for the Red River Gorge climbing community.

My only dealing with John Cletus was when he recently used bad form by accusing me of being inconsiderate while having my two dogs with me at the Lode (on FaceBook). He continued his rant by obsenely slandering the lexington crew for bringing their kids to the crag.

John, no one person is any more entitled to be at the cliff than anyone else. I have heard you are hot tempered, angry, and you yourself told me you "can be a complete asshole sometimes". Sounds like you live a life of regret and I hope you are able to figure out how to be happy one day. Good luck with that and if/when you do I'll be happy to shake your hand and take on a deep conversation with you. And to Zac - really man? Why are you being so angry? You are such a better person than this. Both of you need to harvest this energy and be proactive in making a positive change, not divide our community.

I suggest you all get your "CREW" back out there and put back up the PDs that our community purchased and equiped. Keep the aluminum junk down and lead a movement to remove unsafe gear from routes. If you do this, I think you will redeem yourselves.