PDs at Lode

[camhead]

One of the nicest things about the Red is that you guys have no Tool. Looks like that just changed.

Tool's best album was Undertow. Coincidence? I think not.

[AlexAndEr]

Look at the numbers, as of 9:57 P.M. 75% of people thought this was a bad idea. This stunt was an attempt to solve a very prevalent and big problem, unfortunately this did not solve the problem. What I think we need to do as a whole, not just a small group, is come up with a solution, if there is one. On that note, we must understand that the red is the red and for the same reason you climb/live there people come to the red because it has phenomenal routes, and has climbing becomes a more poplular sport the red will become a more popular climbing destination.

[tbwilsonky]

well people thinking it's a bad idea and it - you know - being one aren't really the same thing.

[THB]

Cletus, I think you are missing Michelle's point...

Also...
I think that kafish has been the most reasonable person posting to this thread. I agree with what he has said regarding this issue 100% so far. Like he said, if there is going to be a permanent team (year round, too... not just from Sept-Nov) that is keeping routes in the gorge free from project draws, then that seems like it may be the best solution. If this is going to be you and your crew, Cletus, then good luck to you all. But I don't think there is enough man power to keep all of the routes in the gorge free from mank. I think that, like kafish said, steel perma-draws seems to be the lesser of 2 evils.

[chosen1]

So...you're telling me that each time you go get on "your" route you're going to hang draws on your project? And it's ok if they stay up for that whole day? or a few days? or if the temps aren't cooperating and it takes a while to send a few weeks? what are the rules?
Since you and others are the new enforcers at the RED, I want to make sure I have everything straight before I drive down and run into some unexpected bullshit at the crag. I get out once a week, so I'm not going to waste my time stripping your project. I'm not a Dick and I don't think I can do whatever I want because I've been climbing at the RED for 12 years or because I'm a local. '
Some of your points are valid, but the delivery was in bad form at best.

[clif]

for some reason i'm wishing Spragwa would post a comment about Hobbs and the Leviathan.

[der uber]

Also, any draws left on the undertow for any extended period of time will be cleaned and left at the base of the climb. If anyone has any suggestions for other locations to leave cleaned draws please comment.

What qualifies as an extended period of time? I left draws upfor about a week and was quite happy to be able to come back and take them down myself.

I come down to the red mostly on the weekends. I like climbing at the lode and go there frequently when I'm down. Sure, there can be crowds, but I just haven't noticed all the complaints listed here as being a prevalent issue. Sure, I've seen a dude names Ron go epic on chainsaw a couple times, but he's only good for a few runs per day. I saw a guy take a crapload of hangs on bohica last Saturday, but the only issue there was that he was taking a long time on the route and I just got on something else.

If there were shit shows at the lode prior to this, I'm sure that there will continue to be in the future even without widespread perma draws.

Are you going to strip perma draws everywhere now or is your jurisdiction limited to the lode?

[tbwilsonky]

i saw someone dog for almost 2 hours at Drive By last weekend. PD's or not I'm pretty sure she was in there for the long haul... unfortunately there's no way to enforce good manners.

[rhunt]

For me i just don't see how the responsibility of safe gear DOES NOT fall on the climber(s) who are climbing or working the route? It's not up to the community to keep climbers safe, it's up the the individual climber, and when you take away the climbers ability to discern what is safe you create the mess we have now. I am just an old crusty ex-climber who barely climbs anymore so my opinion probably doesn't mean much BUT I am really glad this has happened and I really hope it make a difference.

[the lurkist]

Good discussion.
Dario spoke wisely when he said that if nothing else this is spurring a needed discussion. But what is the issue? Is it pds? I don't think so.
God bless Zac, et al for doing something impetuous and rash. Where would we be as a sport without passion? But I think the underlying issue is numbers. There are a lot of climbers coming. This is what we as a community need to address.
Now, I'm not talking about xenophobia. As Dario said, this is the result not of Miguel's, not of Ray's guide, not of Rocktoberfest, (all though those things all facilitate the masses), but of our stone, how good it is, and how many routes WE developed and how close we are to 2/3 of the US population. To paraphrase "Field of Dreams" - "Bolt them and they will come, Ray."
Look, we already saw what happens when a land owner invites the world to his property, which happens to be one of the most popular cliffs in the Red, fails to manage the property, not give any notice of expected behavior, and then is surprised when a shit ton of climbers come to his property and recreate.
If we invite the world to the Red (which we have), and fail to communicate to these typically young adults still very much in a narcissistic phase of cognitive development what is the community expected behavior and etiquette norms, and then we are disappointed with when these folks behave in a self interested way that might be construed as poor cliff line etiquette, then we have no one but ourselves blame.
Here is the take home--> the masses are here, and they need to be managed. How? Well, that is up to discussion. I would suggest mechanisms that require no monitoring and voluntary compliance. I think by and large people will do what is asked of them. I think signage that catches climbers where they are and where they need to be reminded the most, at the cliff, is a good start. Non confrontational statements of baseline how-to-behave etiquette. We could agree on what these ground rules are.
As for pds, I have my feelings on these. I personally like having good solid convenient fixed gear. But I think they are a enabling convenience device for climbers to avoid responsibility and will ultimately fail and represent a potential threat. I don't think Zac and crew taking them down is the answer to the bigger problem. These should be discussed, too, and the community should decide how PDs either help maintain or detract from the optimum safest environment at the cliff.
I spoke with Meadows tonight, and we think that anyone with a voice and a position on these matters should GET TOGETHER and TALK about it.
Here is the thing. What has happened here is an expression of the duality of our love for the Red. But the commonality is that we all love the Red. I think that is a good starting point that we all can agree on, and then talk through what are the very real underlying issues facing the Red.
I would like to call a meeting at Miguel's this Saturday Night at 8 oclock there abouts. If you have an opinion, please bring it. We as a community need to hear all sides and come to an agreement on a few things-- 1. what is the real problem and its extent, and 2. what are some steps to deal with it. That is a lot to think might happen, but it is worth a try.