Replacing Steel Biners

[vertical1]

My intent was to send Rick an email, but I forgot until I saw this thread. As far as safety, perfectly safe to climb with gate flipped around. The difference is that The wire is not constantly rubbing agains the sharp end as the rope would be. Biners are unidirectional. Forces are still pulling along the major axis.

[caribe]

If nobody else deals with it Dustin let's run up there this weekend to replace some gear if necessary. I can donate some steel permas to cb6.

[climb2core]

Well, I am glad that you noticed and at least flipped them to bring attention to them. However, I am not convinced as to the safety of having an admittedly finger cutting sharp edge resting on a draw... even if it is a wire one. If for no other reason, because the next guy comes along, flips it back thinking it was just flipped from the rope and then leaves it there to climb on. I think we should consider what is the "best practice" to do when encountering sharp gear.

Obviously it would just be best to replace it with equal or better quality gear on the spot. But if that is not an option, should we
a) Just flip sharp ends
b) Replace it with an Aluminum biner
c) Pull it and leave nothing until it can be replaced?

Regardless of choosing a,b, or c, I think it is important to recognize that you need to make sure you take responsibility for fixing the problem or passing on said responsibility to another party. That should be part of the package when you decide to climb on perma's.

I think Vert did us a favor by at least recognizing there was a problem but didn't take accountability for it or at least pass it on. Not too hard to imagine the consequences of letting stuff like this slide.

Experts, what is the best thing to do?

[dustonian]

Sounds good Caribe. I'll be out there Sat morning anyway to help out with Rick & Liz's rescue storage building. We can try a few projects afterwards if you want and then go for some draw swappin'.

Those CB6 permadraws have probably been there about 4 years now, & given the popularity of the route, an upgrade (or outright removal) of the PDs is in order. I know they didn't get replaced or probably even inspected at last year's trail day during the PD work, as we were all focusing on routes with aluminum at that time (a fallacious assumption if there ever was one!).

In any case, we all know what Mr. Route Developer thinks on this subject... and I am beginning to agree. It is a testament to the extremely temporary nature of the steel PD "solution" that these draws have been there less than 5 years and are already cooked. Some of the steel chain draws removed this season from Left Flank and Roadside after 1 year or less of wear are already looking pretty bad. Like I said last year during the PD-buying craze, steel draws in a way are MORE dangerous than aluminum because they look so permanent and safe, yet often are not, and in the end steel winds up significantly sharper and potentially more rope-damaging than aluminum ever could. Steel/chain PDs are great for places like Rifle, which has dry air and little sand on ropes, but here in muggy, sandy Kentucky they are just not holding up to the test of time. So we are left with the choice of constant vigilance (which we should be practicing anyway) or outright removal (which most of us can admit totally sucks on harder steeper routes).

In answer to your question C2C, my general feeling is that carabiners sharp enough to be dangerous should be removed rather than repositioned. But every situation is unique and we all have to make a judgment call at that moment. There are no "perfect" answers in this situation really. You are correct in stating that monitoring and replacing fixed gear is part of the deal when you choose to climb on fixed gear. Unfortunately, this is the exception rather than the rule with the majority of climbers. That said, it is encouraging to see that all of you guys noticed a dangerous situation and we are responding appropriately.

[caribe]

I will commit Saturday to help you Dusti.

[dustonian]

Well, it ain't crack climbing but it will be fun anyway. How's that finger of yours feeling for a little pre-rigging crimpdown?

[caribe]

I can't disclose current weaknesses--enemies online.

[vertical1]

So in removing them, I could potentially let someone think it is prehung when it is in fact not. If someone can rotate them back, they should have realized that they were sharp. If I replaced them with aluminum, the situation becomes dangerous sooner. If there were no prehungs, I would have just hung my own, and then taken them when I left. I could have chosen a different route, but that doesn't fix the problem. If someone wants to give me some steel biners, I will gladly replace this week. I have donated to bolt replacement at the lode, but don't have money to donate to permas when I have perfectly good draws that I can hang if permas werent in the way.

[dustonian]

Right, no perfect solution really. IMO better just to take it down so there is O% chance of rope slicing in the future... I always take a draw or two anyway in case I encounter a sharp biner on route or a missing PD (plus my wife weighs nothing and doesn't dig it when I work routes and don't go direct). Anyway, people do a lot of weird things with sketchy gear, often without checking it first unfortunately... so just trashing sharp biners is a safer idiot-proof bet. Arty and I will replace the PDs on Saturday.

[vertical1]

Thanks duston. If you could get them to miguels, I could do it tomorrow, or I am in lex right now.