dustonian wrote: Seriously, if you weren't directly involved in the planning and execution of this catastrophe, you're just whistling out of your ass.
Umm, no. So are you saying the experts that analyzed this crash are just full of shit because they didn't plan it? Besides that, it doesn't take a fucking rocket surgeon to see that two airplanes were flown into buildings at high speed causing the the collapse of the structure. Furthermore, it is a witch hunt for conspiracy theorists. Experts have analyzed the collapse and produced sound evidence that explains the collapse of the building.
3 buildings came down on 9/11, not two. Which experts? Do you really need any expert at all? I didn't, and still don't, but sorting through what both sides say (and don't say) can be very educational (If you have an open mind and can hear what isn't being said, and therefore denied). What if laws were broken, and obvious, common sense steps, which are SOP in any building destruction above a certain dollar amount (what else counts?), were not followed on 9/11?
This really is exasperating. It is no american citizen's duty to "trust the government" or "kowtow to the government". We must never forget that the government is supposed to answer to us, we are the boss after all. The government is elected by us to serve us. Do they do a good job? Hell no, but that really is our fault. Whether or not I trust the government has absolutely nothing to do with who was behind the attacks of 9/11. It does not follow that because I don't trust the government "they must have done it". It is simply that not one thing the truther's say makes any sense at all, NOT ONE BLESSED THING. I have followed this story from the beginning. The truthers have told nothing but one fantastic lie after another, all in an effort to aggrandize themselves I suppose.
The truthers said the towers weren't even struck by airliners full of passengers. They offered photos of apparently windowless planes striking the buildings. We know that was a lie.
The truthers said the pentagon wasn't struck by an airliner full of passengers. They said it was a missile, they said there was no airline wreckage inside the pentagon. Hundreds of eye witness
to the plane striking the pentagon and to the pieces of wreckage inside (including wheel carriages and passengers still strapped in their seats) put the lie to this story.
The truthers said that many hundreds of Jews were no shows at work on the day of the attack. They knew what was coming. All lies, there was no Jew sick-out on that day.
The truthers said cell phone communications from the hijacked passengers were faked. Lies
The truthers said the flights that allegedly struck the buildings were hijacked by our government and the passengers were being held captive somewhere. An impossible fantasy.
The truthers said the Pennsylvania flight was shot down by U.S. fighter planes. A lie that demeans the heroic passengers that gave their lives resisting the hijackers.
The truthers said the buildings fell at a "free fall" rate of 9 seconds, proving they were demolished. A lie, watch the youtube video.
The truthers said that companies occupying certain floors of the trade centers were responsible for the demolition charges with absolutely no evidence. Lies
They claim that steel was melted, offering no credible evidence. Lies
They deny that what was obviously molten aluminum was molten aluminum. Lies
They claim conspiracies and relationships between individuals that have never known one another. Spun out of whole cloth with no proof whatsoever. Lies
The lies go on and on and on, and yes victims are blamed, jews who died on 9/11 along with everyone else were blamed. Security services that died along with everyone else are blamed. Business people that died along with everyone else are blamed. Everyone but the person who proudly claimed responsibility is blamed.
The truthers have been caught in literally hundreds of lies.
Here is my challenge to the truthers. Dig through your shitpile of claims that are counter to "the official government story" (god I hate that phrase) and prove that just one thing you say is true, just one.
does the gov't really do such a terrible job? easy to say so, and many do (on both sides of the aisle), but i'm not so sure. for one, in the heavily partisan atmosphere of contemporary politics a sizable portion of the electorate (local, national, whatever) is going to feel as though their needs are not being met and, thus, lash out at the gov't for its incompetence, wastefulness, misplaced priorities, or whatever. consider also that the "winning" side of the electorate will also feel their needs aren't being met...typically, anyways. why? the levers of gov't are setup so as to produce compromise and measured responses (see: Obama's health-care reform bill...a lot of liberals were not fans!). so, ask yourself, is it that gov't is inherently corrupt and inefficient (as conservatives charge) or is it just not doing everything that YOU want.
another thing to consider -- the gov't has a lot less control over global economic forces than a lot of ppl assume and those forces have a lot more to do with everyday quality of life than anything the gov't can or can't do.
the "government," in any case, is not a coherent entity -- it is composed of millions of people doing all sorts of jobs with more or less success. and these people, by the way, are your friends, neighbors, and family. some of these people are worthless, some aren't. some are trying their best to do a good job, some aren't. blind gov't hate does us no good. it tends to eschew the hard questions and compromises we need to engage to move our country forward and tends to elicit the sort of faux-tough-guy libertarian responses not fitting of a conversation about serious matters.
with that said, it is good to be skeptical of those in gov't, and those in other positions of power for that matter. the level of inequality in this country is appalling and i have no doubt that people like dick cheney will do all they can to ensure power stays where it is. were the events of 9/11 a gov't conspiracy? i have no idea. what i do know is that our political economy is setup in such a way that wealth flows to the top and anyone else is, increasingly, going to have a tough go of it. this, though, is not the sole fault of gov't. it's not the gov't that denied ppl coverage when they had a preexisting condition. it's not the gov't that charges people 25% interest. in fact, the gov't is directly or indirectly responsible for much of the pleasantness we enjoy in our lives today. anyone want to go back to the early 1900s and see how you fare laying track out west or working in the coal mines for 16 hours a day? anyone want to live in a country in which we allow the "forces of the market" to ensure the food we eat is safe or that the environment is adequately cared for?
it would be nice (perhaps) if we lived in a world characterized by the absence of political and ethical disagreement. in the real world, though, we disagree on what the good society is and how to reach it. this disagreement is expressed, ultimately, through "government" and, as such, gov't takes the brunt of the criticism from the masses. if we lived in the hobbesian state of nature we could, i don't know, move to a different part of the forest or bash each others heads in if we had a disagreement, thereby eliminating the cruel bonds of the polity. i, for one, happily accept those bonds and recognize that though gov't doesn't always get it right nor does it always get it wrong.
OK, so that's it? Nanothermite? Your one great truth? Really?
The very first line of your linked article reads:
"In the last few years, a series of peer-reviewed scientific articles has been published that establish the presence of thermitic material at the World Trade Center (WTC). (A-D)."
That's interesting, until one discovers that the listed "peer reviewed journals" in question are open source online publications, not something that any scientist, engineer or academic would call a peer-reviewed journal. What a joke. Well, not really. truthmiracle's linked article attempts to deceive in it's very first sentence. Now that all the truther's original claims have been thoroughly debunked - "Not one Jew died at the World Trade Centers on 9/11", "Those were not civilian airliners that struck the twin towers and the Pentagon", they've moved on to more technical arguments and minutia -in the hope that we will be wowed by their "scientific" case. Still it's the same old crap. Oh, and the principal promoter of the nanothermite tall tale? Steven Earl Jones, recognize that name? He's one of the "cold fusion" guys and a hard-core truther from Brigham Young university where he ended up losing his job over his bullshit science. Nice try.
Last edited by LK Day on Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew wrote:I will admit that the collapse of Building 7 is odd.
If you'd been anywhere in Building 7 when thousands of tons of debris from the WTC came crashing into it you probably wouldn't have thought it so odd at all.
