Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

[chriss]

all cool, as long as you count every hang on the rope as one go....so in your 'sesh", you actually sent it on, oh, perhaps your 34th go of the day...just be honest,that's all.

That is why I only count the number of times that I rope up.

Does that mean if I rope up, and don't untie, then I can send it first go?

I am thinking in terms of a project. i.e. I sent on my 23rd rope up. But then again, you can call it whatever you want .... But, first go typically indicates a flash or onsite, so your may want to be more specific.

[vertical1]

I agree with your way of counting

[SCIN]

Counting your "goes" on sport routes after blowing the flash or onsight attempt is WAY fruity. Seriously, unless you're climbing 15a no one gives a damn. Even then it's pretty damn boring.

Counting tries is kind of like comparing dick sizes with your friends. No matter how big you are there is always Jonah Falcon lurking in the background.

[pigsteak]

since I have never heard of jonah falcon, I'll assume he is not mini-me....

[der uber]

I've gotten my rope stuck on SBF and have seen others get their stuck. I even rescued someone's rope for them. If there's any route in the Red that needs permas it's SBF.

There's nothing "strong" or "weak" about project draws on a route. If someone is too "weak" to hang their own draws they can easily just stick clip them up. Just because it feels impossible to hang draws on a line doesn't mean you shouldn't be on it. It just means you haven't found the clipping stance, pinch, micro-crimp, thumb smear, etc yet.

TradMike, If you've never had to grab the stick clip to hang a draw or place a cam (I've done that) then it means you aren't pushing yourself hard enough. When you choose to take on a line that pushes you to the max you will barely be able to hang onto some holds or fingerlocks long enough to shove in pro or clip a draw. Plenty of hard trad lines were sent with some pre-placed pieces due to the difficulty of the placement. Do you ever watch climbing videos? Do you ever see Ondra hanging his draws when he sends 5.15?

Popular routes will always have pre-hung draws because people leave behind project draws. All of the hard lines I've sent had either someone else's draws or my own draws pre-hung when I did them. The arguments against perm-draws shouldn't involve comments about being "too weak to hang them" because pre-hanging will happen regardless on tough lines.

Love it

[climb2core]

If I'm working a route and another climber walks up to the cliff and informs me that he is ready for his red point burn I'm not going to lower off the route and let him/her go. I would politely inform the climber that this is a working burn and it might be 30 minutes. I don't feel the difficulty of the route or my current redpoint level play into the etiquette for this situation. I was on the route first and should not feel pressured to get off the route for someone else.

Agreed!

With so many other routes at the solarium and the arsenal, jump on another route. Then again, if you can't handle waiting for 30 minutes you may need to work on your patience.

I have no problems with waiting and it was my choice to do so. Going back to my op, this was only even an issue because of the permanent draws inviting people to climb above their grade. It would be the equivalent of me getting on hard 13 or a 14... What ever level you climb at, add 2 full grades, then go and do your "beta burn". I think the only thing you will really learn is you shouldn't be on that line. Again, this thread was more about that then the minor annoyance
I endured waiting for my lune of choice.

[fray21]

If the perma-draws were not hung and they got on the climb you would have been waiting a lot longer for them to finish and clean the route. You should be thankful the line had project draws.

I do understand your annoyance, we have all been there before when going to get on a project, but we have to remember that everyone has the privilege to climb any route. If I'm serious about a project I try to get out early to make sure I won't have a problem getting on it at somepoint in the day.

[climb2core]

If the perma-draws were not hung and they got on the climb you would have been waiting a lot longer for them to finish and clean the route. You should be thankful the line had project draws.

I do understand your annoyance, we have all been there before when going to get on a project, but we have to remember that everyone has the privilege to climb any route. If I'm serious about a project I try to get out early to make sure I won't have a problem getting on it at somepoint in the day.

Not really, cause I would have offered to switch out their gear. When I went to the Solarium I fully expected to wait, but I guess didn't expect to wait for the situation described... Which I am confident only occurred from the inviting permas on the route. Anyways, we may see it differently, which is fine too.

[dustonian]

So stop mewling on here about it... tell Rick Weber you don't approve of steel draws on the route and would like to go back to jingus aluminum razors because you had to wait too long for your sick 11d proj, brah. Damn those volunteers and permadraw donors for fulfilling a landowner request and trying to keep a very popular route safe!!

[climb2core]

So stop mewling on here about it... tell Rick Weber you don't approve of steel draws on the route and would like to go back to jingus aluminum razors because you had to wait too long for your sick 11d proj, brah. Damn those volunteers and permadraw donors for fulfilling a landowner request and trying to keep a very popular route safe!!

First, nice subtle spray!!! Second, you sound feebly like Pigsteak with your proj. brah comment. Third, when did I ever say they should be removed? Read my OP, brah. My point is, there are some drawbacks to perma's and I think their use is abused by some. And after thinking about it more, it is more about the people climbing through them than the perma's.

SBF a great, albeit tough 11d route, and I appreciate the permas on it when I climb it, and even more appreciate being able to climb in MV.